March 17

General Discussions

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Devil's Due

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Posted March 17, 2016 by Taylor Anderson in category "Uncategorized


  1. By Joe Thorsky on

    Q-boat (Matarife?)
    Another CSS Alabama-Commerce Raider?
    CSS Alabama
    Some Moor meat on the Bone(y) River that’s to come??.
    Mister Professor mp3 Leroy Van Dyke

    The unknown clerk who steamrollered and processed the
    Patent Application for James Watt 1768-69.
    Isn’t Bureaucracy wonderful!!!
    It was James Watt who designed a separate condensing chamber
    for the steam engine that prevented enormous losses of steam.
    His first patent in 1769 covered this device and other improvements
    on Newcomen’s engine.
    “Watt’s partner and backer was the inventor John Roebuck. In 1775,
    Roebuck’s interest was taken over by Matthew Boulton who owned
    an engineering works in Birmingham. Together he and Watt began
    to manufacture steam engines. Boulton & Watt became the most
    important engineering firm in the country.”

    Note: Fulton’s steamboat could not exist without James Watt’s
    engineering improvements to the Newcomen’s engine.
    And The “Age of Sail” would not have been displaced by Technology.

    1. By Alexey Shiro on

      Joe, Q-ships required neutral or friendly shipping to hide an armed ship in it. In Destroyermen’s world conditions, there are very limited ammmount of such shipping.

      The best Q-ship idea that I could imagine in such conditions is League-crewed paddle steamer, which pretended to be Imperial ship to hunt Imperial trade on Pacific. This actually may even be efficient – such actions would put a lot more strain on Imperial trade, and force the Union to send additional ships into Pacific just to patrol aimlessly the ocean or spend time as convoy escorts.

      Problem is, League have submarines, and they are better for such job. Especially with some “cows” around.

      1. By Joe Thorsky on

        I think thou Protestist way too much here over the
        opportunities and the implications presented and as referenced.
        I would refer you to the history of USS Stewart DD-224

        Boney was a Warrior mp3/ 97th Regimental String Band
        Roll the Chariot mp3/ 97th Regimental String Band
        Album- Saturday Night at Sea

        1. By Alexey Shiro on

          …And how exactly the history of Japanese trophy flush-decker correspond with Q-ship idea?…

  2. By Matthieu on

    Dear all

    To celebrate the new year, I have a small “competition” for you. No price nor flower (nor kisses from me even if I know that you all want one). All of you can participate (even you, Taylor). The goal is to learn new things.

    Objective: give the name of somebody who changed the world.

    1) It has to be a single individual
    2) it has to be a single decision done at a specific time
    3) you can not name the leader of a country (as by definition they all change the world)

    Points: the larger the change, the more points you get (we award points together). The more unlikely the decision, the more points you get. The less important the guy was, the more points you get.

    Bonus point: if the person does exist (and there are accounts) but history lost his name.

    – John Wilkes Booth: not a lot of points as by this point was was over and it has been planned
    – decision from Hiro Hito to attack USA: 0 point (he was a ruler/leader)
    – Rosa Parks: a lot of points but not the maximum (she was not known and she changed mainly a single country)
    – Einstein: 0 point (it’s research, not a “single decision”).

    You get the idea? You probably have some cases in your own histories.

    1. Taylor AndersonsBy Taylor Andersons on

      Good game idea. Okay, off the top of my head to get things rolling, Nimitz’s decision to ignore the Aleutians and send all his flat tops to Midway.

      1. Taylor AndersonsBy Taylor Andersons on

        For another semi-Texas-centric figure (Nimitz was a Texan too) W.B. Travis (though he only died a Texan) decision to defend the Alamo instead of abandon it, like he was supposed to. Kind of dumb in retrospect and I have always believed the Texians didn’t stay to die but (with all the artillery present) actually thought they’d win. No disrespect to the memory of the defenders; at SOME point they finally realized they were hosed and stayed anyway. The point is, despite the myth that the defenders of the Alamo bought Houston time to build his army (he wasted what time they gave him) the EFFECT of the massacre was the inspiration of outraged comparisons to Leonidas and his 300 Spartans. Not an entirely inappropriate comparison, either, and the result was the same: a shame-faced revenge-victory completed by those who weren’t there, and the independence of Texas. Re Travis himself, however, not trying to lionize him, (he had several disagreeable traits), but you can’t discount the resurgence of awareness of Leonidas at the time. Did Travis SEE himself as another Leonidas? Did that influence his decision, especially when it was clear there’d be no help? Could be.
        Probably not many “points,” but is this what you had in mind, Matthieu? A name and a reason?

        1. Taylor AndersonsBy Taylor Andersons on

          Pontius Pilate’s decision not to decide. Okay, I’m done. Next?

          1. By Matthieu on

            Mohamed Bouazizi –> many points! The guy was not a leader nor in control of anything and it leaded to a revolution.

            Nimitz –> not a lot of point: he was the commander of the largest fleet in the world. Cheater :)

            Pontius –> more points. Well, he was also a leader. If we think about that Judas would have got you many more points :)

            But yes, a name and a reason!

            My turn…. Your idea about the Tunisian revolution gave me an idea:

            Pierre-Augustin Hulin

            He was a staff sergeant. He heard about a low level revolt in the city. Only civilians with some weapons, lacking powder and bullets. They were trying to attack (without any success) a fortress. A single company or two were enough to disperse them.
            He rallied three companies and took with him five guns then moved to the location. Then something quite unexpected happened….

            Exact moment: minute 44 , second 50.

            (you have subtitles, whole scene minutes 25 to 40)

            Explanation: for the first time the army (technically this unit was something like a national guard) sided with the population against the king. Later that day a meeting took place with the king. The exact sentences were:

            – My king, Parisians attacked the Bastille
            – It is a revolt?
            – No sir, this is a revolution

            P.S. You can see the face of governor de Launay whose face is basically saying “shit” (and whose head ended on a pike 2 hours later)

          2. Taylor AndersonsBy Taylor Andersons on

            Good. But Nimitz wasn’t “cheating.” He didn’t HAVE the biggest fleet in the world when he made that call, and risked the cream of what he had left. Damn gutsy. And Pilate wasn’t a “national” leader. Right, Judas’ decision would’ve scored more points, but I was struck (as always) by the irony of a non-decision decision having such a profound effect. And you left out Travis! You think “Who cares, that’s just Texas,” but just think how momentous Texas’ Independence has been for the world! Without Texas, there’d be no Texans! There’d be no myth of the Cowboy and the “rugged individualism” ethos of the whole US would be diminished, perhaps undermining its contributions to the world–and there’d be no Western Movies, as we know them! John Wayne would’ve probably been stuck making B gangster pictures. And, of course, there’d be no Nimitz–or Me! :)

          3. By matthieu on

            Well we would have had Kansas’ movies :)

            Pilate was a really good move, indeed.

            In the USA Eleazer Gay would have scored a lot, really a lot of points .

            I’m sure that we can find even more decisive people.

          4. Taylor AndersonsBy Taylor Andersons on

            Ha. No cattle drives to Kansas, no Kansas movies either!

            Hmm. Re the Library at Alexandria, it burned several times and some may have been accidental. Other times were either at the direction of “leaders” (doubtful Caesar would’ve ordered it, being a pretty respectable historian himself) or just a thoughtless act of vandalism by drunken, conquering thugs. The Pope might’ve ordered it, to eliminate knowledge that competed with Church teachings, Muslim invaders might’ve done it for similar reasons, or to complete their conquest–or it could’ve been burned to DENY the knowledge in the library to a conqueror! (I’ve always hoped some stuff was saved somewhere and will be rediscovered some day. Who knows? Maybe it’s hidden in the Vatican?) ANYWAY, this is almost a whole different discussion, but I still figure the final destruction was either the result of a conscious decision by a “leader” or mindless hooliganism and not a “decision” at all, except as stated, by some nameless group of probably drunken thugs. Can a mob make a conscious decision?

          5. By matthieu on

            This is a good question. At the time the pope had a very very limited power (we often forget that it became the rela leader only very late). The Basileus would have been able to do it for him.

          6. By donald j johnson on

            What about Marie Antoinette and her decision to let them eat cake she wasn’t a leader but her decision to let them eat cake caused the French Revolution which really changed the world not just France

          7. By Matthieu on

            Well, given that she was a queen, you loose some points :)

            But… this sentence comes from Jean-Jacques Rousseau in a book published in 1782 and, despite rumors, is not related to Marie Antoinette. The fact is that many believed that the queen could have said something like that.

    2. By Matt on

      The guy who set fire to the library of Alexandria. We don’t know who it was because historians can’t even decide when the library was destroyed. My have been destroyed during Caesars time or as late as the 600s AD during a Muslim conquest. Either way it was likely a nameless warrior carrying out his orders. The loss of written history, poetry, art, classical science and math is devastating.

        1. By Alexey Shiro on

          matthieu, may I ask some historical question? You knew a lot about French military history; maybe you could suggest, where I could find some data about World War I French army airships? I’m interested in that question, but there is only a little data avaliable about them.

          1. By matthieu on

            Just tell me what you need about them. As a matter of fact they were not popular at all for many reasons: too many accidents before the war, too much demand for strategic materials, more investement on planes and so on. What do you need exactly?

          2. By Alexey Shiro on

            General organisation of airship’s forces, their place in Aéronautique Militaire structure. Exactly about airships – I’m interested in their armament, both offensive (bombs) and defensive (machine guns).

            Am I right that France used only blimps during the war, semi-rigid weren’t build?

    3. By Joe Thorsky on

      Solely for Background Purposes Only!

      Not for Any Particular Attribution and Sourcing
      And Please Don’t Print or Quote me on this.
      But, My submitted Contest Entry is
      Johannes Gutenburg
      A veritable Genius winning Inventor but the absolute worst of losers
      in the winning of lawsuits and the selection of Lawyers (Legal Counsel).
      Invention /The Printing Press and Moveable Type
      The printing of the Forty-two-Line Bible was Gutenberg’s Masterpiece

      Jawohl! And without Him there wouldn’t be any of Taylor’s Destroyermen’s
      novels to read!!!-
      Ja? nein?

    4. By Justin on

      Nice one, Matt, Joe.

      There’s Vasili Arkhipov and Stanislav Petrov, who both saved the world decades apart.

      Jonas Salk, creator of the polio vaccine.

      The kid who shot Richard I – no King John, no Magna Carta.

      … Does Tank Man count? He didn’t really do anything except inspire a bunch of parodies and inspirational posters.

    5. By Steve Moore on

      Except for the fact that we can’t prove his actual existence; Jesus. Don’t think movements count under your rules…

      Then there was some British soldier who could have killed Hitler on War History Online.

      Paul Tibbetts, pilot of the Enola Gay; imagine if he’d dropped the bomb 5 miles offshore to try and scare the Japanese into surrendering?

      Kapitänleutnant Walther Schwieger, captain of the U-20, who sank the Lusitania

  3. By Joe Thorsky on

    Great posts guys!!!!

    Finally warming up to the tropics at hand after dispelling
    mulch of that temporary unsobering momentary brain freeze
    that has suddenly becalmed us all recently.
    I suddenly feel very much like the character in Steve Goodman’s
    “Three Legged Man” mp3 always trying to get up to speed with,
    Katsup to, and keep up with the frenetic pace and to the quality
    of the recent conversations and debates this forum and you all
    have always fostered and continuously set, demonstrated and maintained.
    One can never really stop the learning (Even Me!).

    Another link for consideration
    The Silent Service/U 47 ‘The U 47 in Scapa Flow’
    Returning to the Whup De Do Rah-Rah topic of the midget submarines.
    Considering it’s feasibility and doability, I suggest does rest
    with what use, design and technological specifications and
    characteristics are eventually decided upon and incorporated.
    Thus, a torpedo or mine laying C.S. Hunley variation would certainly
    seam to satisfy the immediate need and entertain both Maxims.
    The only technological obstacle off course would be finding
    a work around solution to the problem plaguing both ship hull and
    aircraft airframe integrity.
    Wait-Gaskets anyone?

    Also, closest list of animes /magnas quite similar in approach to
    Mr. Anderson’s Destroyermen’s Series in many respects and
    particulars would be:
    The Gate: Thus the JSDF Fought There
    Aoki Hagane no Arpeggio Ars Nova
    Tactical Roar
    You’ll might want to check them out.

    1. By Justin on

      … What.

      A) They’ve already got actual minelayers. No need to reinvent the wheel.
      B) Any Hunley-type sub, for everybody’s well being, would be a prototype tested out in home waters for the REAL subs and nowhere near the front lines.
      C) Subs are feasible, fair enough, but just because we’ve put a man on the moon doesn’t mean we can put a man on the sun; Orkney was practically next door to Wilhelmshaven, ja?
      Any coastal subs would be half as capable, need to cover at least six times that distance, and be much more vulnerable to enemy action. The Union Navy is not a Soviet penal battalion.

      1. By Joe Thorsky on

        Moving From Doability to Doneability
        A reconfiguring of the military imbalance of power between the LOT and the Union does of necessity require a Woolly Mammoth of a game changing event that any deployment of a surface naval force could not
        adequately or successfully provide. Both the Union and the Lot each have experienced the same problem of having overextended and tenuous Resource/Supply Logistics Lines that are umbilicily tendered and tethered to the false safety of secure Anchorages and Harbors. Deploying, inserting and employing an active viable submarine threat remains the only viable option capable of cost effectively restoring the out of kilt(er) military balance.
        And Justin-it’ll work even for you as long as you don’t treat the midgets like bombs or torpedoes and just willy nihilily try to air drop them without so much as a Mae West flotation collar.

        Blinded by the Light mp3- Manfred Mann’s Earth Band
        Moby Book mp3- Steve Goodman
        Alley Oop’s mp3- Hollywood Argyles

        1. By Steve Moore on

          My guess is that a good portion of the Italian submarine fleet would have been committed, at least in a screening role, to the CES’ move on Egypt, while Spanish subs might have been relegated to securing the Gibraltar end of the Med and French subs positioned off the Bay of Biscay. So a good number of subs might have been swept along. Where the remaining LOT U-boat(s?) came from, good question; why commit a long-range boat to the Med, when you have refueling close to hand? If LOT wants to stage across the Atlantic, seize the Azores for a fueling station and use whatever ships you need.

          Now, according to Riggio, the sub was coming to Zanzibar to bring more ammo for the remaining MM’s (and maybe to evac the LOT’s). So it’s gotta be nearby, it’s gotta have fuel, and there’s got to be some way of communicating with it on Zanzibar. Find a way to get hands on that boat, because my guess is that they are an oddball, just like Savoie (Surcouf was probably acting as a milch cow as well as scout) and don’t really fit into the LOT plans.

          My guess is still that the LOT is doing something up the Nile and over to Suez to get fuel Or building a railway where the Suez Canal would have been. That’s the only way it could get there, outside of coming around the Cape, and if Reddy can get a version of Coastal Command in there, that shuts that off.

          Wow, that was a sugar-fueled rush. Two servings of sister’s apple brown betty

          1. By Justin on

            Perhaps there’s an “Atlantis”-sized volcanic island/s in the South Atlantic? From there, it wouldn’t be hard to dive down and sneak past the Cape in a Surcouf-class.

        2. By Justin on

          But nothing’s been done yet… that’s why we’re having this argument in the first place.

          Don’t confuse the Union’s potential littoral subs with midget subs, or with fleet subs; the Type VII-sized fleet subs needed for your harbour raids, as Lou observed, won’t be ready until the series is over.
          The average midget can barely make it from San Fran to LA at 5-7 knots (surfaced), is easily detected/damaged, and is prone to sinking in bad weather – that’s why they’re used as suicide weapons and/or weapons of last resort.
          By contrast, littoral subs are seaworthy and large enough (bigger = more supplies and fuel) for short-range cruises, if not sprints across the ocean… but to make it to a League harbour in the Azores or Mediterranean, the Union’d need a tender for resupplying and warships to keep the enemy off their asses, in which case, they might as well just send the warships – which can also target the harbour itself.

          A surface fleet CAN threaten the League, just ask Glorious, Hood, Renown or any Allied merchants; even the threat of an attack (Tirpitz, etc) can scatter a convoy. So long as the cruisers also aren’t sent piecemeal – DDs acting as escorts and fast CVs as air control – the enemy supply lines are as good as gone.

          1. By Joe Thorsky on

            Justin-Steve-Alexey-Charles-Nestor-Matthiew et al
            How would the Lot react if only a few of their
            capital or merchant ships were unexpectedly lost,
            damaged or sunk due to the combined actions due to
            Q-boat (Matarife?)/midget submarine activities.
            Another Das Reboot?
            Would there be suspicions/recriminations erupting along
            what Axis within the ranks of Allied Lot command?
            What (preventative-security) actions would they be forced
            to undertake?
            What would their likely military/diplomatic response be?
            And wouldn’t the resulting effort be decidedly cost-resource

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            A couple of other mangas/animes you might want to
            have a look-see.
            Trinity Blood
            MuvLuv Alternative Total Eclipse

          2. By Alexey Shiro on

            With all respect, but nearly all League logistic activities are in Mediterranean, and quite well protected just by geography. And Q-ship… the idea of Q-ship is that Q-ship looks like an innocent merchant, before opening fire. But what exactly “innocent merchant” League’s ships could meet in Destroyermen’s World? Grik cargo indiamen? In Mediterranean, it would be… pretty suspicious.

          3. By Justin on

            ^ What Alexey said. But alright, let’s assume the League has supply lines extending beyond Gibraltar.

            Problem one, the Union’s subs don’t have the supplies or gas mileage to attack League ships in the Atlantic; they’ll only come into play if the capitals or merchants in the Caribbean or West Africa attack the Union.

            Problem two, the League might not have radar, but they definitely have sonar. Like a Fleashooter against a Mocha-mess or “Surcouf” against Walker, I don’t envy a WWI coastal sub’s chances against a WWII destroyer.

          4. By Justin on

            While we’re on ASW, do the Americans know about Hedgehog launchers?

          5. By Steve Moore on

            One subject we haven’t really explored… who are the League’s enemies in the Med? Possibly transported British elements? Bolsheviks from the Black Sea? A resurgent Hellenic Empire? Just reading the coffee grounds in the bottom of my morning mug.

          6. By Justin on

            I’m guessing a mix of both Entente and Turks from the Gallipoli campaign – probably with a Reşadiye-class battleship thrown in, just to make the League hot under the collar.

            Even without one, them plus an existing Byzantine/Russian/Ottoman faction in the Black Sea could plug the Straits and hold the fascists off indefinitely.

          7. By Alexey Shiro on

            // Bolsheviks from the Black Sea? //

            Personally vote for that. Probably with some locals also (bolsheviks wouldn’t have as much troubles as League setting in with, say, lemurians, after all)

          8. By Matt on

            A WW1 battleship wouldn’t be a threat to stukas though. The league likely has dive bombers, if not stukas then something like it. A WW1 equipped BB would have very little in the way of AA defense and would be a big target. The only real issue the league would have is a lack of carriers so any air attack from their base in Tripoli would require shipping them closer to an airbase within range. Clever and proper defense could make this difficult though but I would imagine the League would work very quickly to eliminate any sizeable force in the Mediterranean with similar levels of technology to their own.

          9. Taylor AndersonsBy Taylor Andersons on

            I think that would depend on how evangelical the Bolsheviks were–and whether Dalibor Svec’s people could get along with them. Of course, though Allied, Svec’s “Brotherhood of Volunteers” and their continental Lemurian (and other) Allies are NOT members of the Union. A lot of what keeps the Grand Alliance together has been “enemy of my enemy” reasoning. Sure, they generally get along pretty well, but can the Grand Alliance survive the war? Can the Union?

          10. By Alexey Shiro on

            //I think that would depend on how evangelical the Bolsheviks were–//

            Not sure I understood the reference… :(

            //and whether Dalibor Svec’s people could get along with them. //

            Considering that they dealed with Griks, they probably wouldn’t bear old gruges too much) And, frankly, Siberians could say a bit of “good” things about Czech Legion too…

            // but can the Grand Alliance survive the war? Can the Union?//

            This depend. Generally from the results of the war, losses & post-war wear and dissatisfaction. Currently everyone are too buisy, but already there are wear and strain.

            Of course, it’s just my speculations, but I assume that Lemurians would probably quickly agree to end the war with Dominion, if Dominion would be able to start meaningful negotiations (not very likely, frankly). The logistic strain and much more important war with Griks are the reasons; for Lemurians, Griks are the “ancient enemy”, and how much they might despise the Dom’s, Dom’s do no harm to Lemurians before this war started.

            The Imperials, for that matter, would probably balk away from any conflict with League. They are even more sea-depended nation than Lemurians (Lemurian territories are, at least, more or less compact; Imperials are disperced all across Pacific), and much more vunerable to communication warfare – and League have submarines.

            The Republik is commited to this war basically only because of the really bad start in their diplomatic negotiation with Griks. “Aid us or die” was REALLY bad idea. But outside of that – basically, their main reason to support the Alliance is the fear of League.

            And the NUS probably already trying to figure out, how they could do damage to Dom’s, without angering the League.

          11. Taylor AndersonsBy Taylor Andersons on

            I meant “evangelical” in the “spread the revolution” sense. Of course, after 20 years, fighting for survival, much of that ardor has probably passed. And considering where I’d like to place them (possible hint) beyond the Dardanelles, they may already be aware of Svec’s people. Might’ve even come across at the same time . . . (Real Easter Egg or misdirection????)
            Of course, once they learned the true nature of the League, they’d probably be quite rabidly against them.

          12. By Steve Moore on

            Future of the Alliance? Kill off the Dom priest class, and the Blood Drinkers before the new general does and assumes the head position.
            Republic is sitting on the best cross-Africa trade route, so I think they’d have lots of pals.
            Ditto for NUS, possibly allying with the priest-less New Doms and securing the Pasa de Fuego, sort of like the Turks with the Dardanelles.
            Alliance needs the NUS (as the NUS needs the Alliance technology) to secure the Caribbean) and protect the Empire’s back door

          13. By Justin on

            That’s kind of an oxymoron, isn’t it? Moderate/lip-service communists would be more willing to cut a deal with the League (Stalin, etc), whereas evangelical communists would be parked out in North Africa faster than you can say “kill the fascists!”

          14. By Alexey Shiro on

            //I meant “evangelical” in the “spread the revolution” sense.//

            Frankly, to “spread the revolution” they need somewhere to spread it. According to Marx & Lenin, the socialism is the next step after bourgeoise capitalism – and there aren’t many capitalists states in Destroyermen’s World, far less many proletarians. So, from Marxist point of view, most Destroyermen’s states need to evolve to capitalism, before they could create a working class, capable of taking power in their own hands.

            //And considering where I’d like to place them (possible hint)//


          15. By Alexey Shiro on

            //That’s kind of an oxymoron, isn’t it? Moderate/lip-service communists would be more willing to cut a deal with the League (Stalin, etc), //

            Justin, should I remind you, that Stalin started to seek accomodation with Germany only after YEARS of unsucsessfull efforts to reach the defense agreement with France and Britian?

            And only after Western Powers allowed Spanish Republic to fell, and de-facto betrayed Czechoslovakia in 1938, Stalin finally was forced to admit that there are no chances of meaningful pact with France. After that, he started to seek some temporal agreement with Germany – as the only remaining way to delay the inevitable war, and gave Soviet Union time to prepare.

          16. Taylor AndersonsBy Taylor Andersons on

            Doesn’t matter. All revolutions try to spread–political, religious, you name it, in a “believe like we do or we’ll make you” manner. May be what the League is doing in the Med . . . Oh wow! Just heard it’s a little nippy in Yakutsia 88F below zero? Yeek! It was 19F here (Central Texas) this morning. I don’t really mind it but my wife thinks the world’s coming to an end. Like most women, I fear she is in closer touch with her inner reptile.

          17. Taylor AndersonsBy Taylor Andersons on

            And by “depends on how evangelical” they are had more to do with whether they could get along with the Czechs–Svec is established as still being bitter about attempts to disarm his men a while back.

          18. By Justin on

            Well, generally speaking, people from tropical countries don’t have much cold resistance – Singapore dropped to 22 degrees just last week (71F), and every other newscaster was in a goddamn tuque and jacket. It was hilarious.

          19. By Justin on

            //Justin, should I remind you, that Stalin started to seek accomodation with Germany only after YEARS of unsucsessfull efforts to reach the defense agreement with France and Britian?//

            What I’m saying is that Stalin was more pragmatic than ideological (Socialism in One Country, etc); a more idealistic General Secretary may have decided to fight the Allies AND Germany all at once simply for not being communist.

            If those types are in charge of the DD-verse Reds, then as Mr. Anderson points out, peaceful coexistence will likely be impossible.

          20. By Alexey Shiro on

            //Doesn’t matter. All revolutions try to spread–political, religious, you name it, in a “believe like we do or we’ll make you” manner//

            Partially agree, but Bolshevik revolution was social one, and thus required a society developed enough to accept it. Bolskeviks tended to be rather flexible around friendly nations. Like Mongolia, for example; in early 1930s, Soviet Union actively criticized them for “blindly copying the USSR internal policy, without regards for unsfficiently developed social basis of Mongolian society”. Of course, later Stalin invoked much more direct control over Mongolian affairs, but generally Bolsheviks tended not to push too hard if they werent in complete control of situation.

            If we take Alliance, for example, I failed to see, where exactly could “revolution” be fitted in. The Lemurians barely started to have proletariat, they still have very little in therms of bourgeoise, and even their aristocracy is still more traditional, than all-powerfull (not counting Nothern Jaava city-states). Who could revolt against whom? There aren’t a lot of “opressed minorities” in Lemurian society, after all)

          21. By Alexey Shiro on

            //And by “depends on how evangelical” they are had more to do with whether they could get along with the Czechs–Svec is established as still being bitter about attempts to disarm his men a while back.//
            This generally depend of their relative power. If they are small power, comparable to Czechs, it may represent a bit of problem – but I may add, that after living with Griks, Czech are probably far less critical about Bolsheviks.

            And if they are something, that may at least gave some significant troubles to the League – then Czech attidude would probably be more a Czech personal problem than a real political hindrance.

          22. By donald j johnson on

            //A WW1 equipped BB would have very little in the way of AA defense and would be a big target.//

            This is only assuming that there have been no upgrades in the previous 20 years and this is mostly unlikely

          23. Taylor AndersonsBy Taylor Andersons on

            I didn’t see that, Justin. Must’ve been a hoot. Oddly (for a Texan) I’ve always liked “moderate” cold, as in 20F-50F. You can always put on a coat. When it’s 120F with no wind and high humidity, you can only strip so far–and it doesn’t help anyway. But what you’re used to is important. I was roofing in the summer of 1980 (the hottest on record here). It was 120F in the shade when some buddies and I left to go visiting in Indiana. It was in the 80s there and felt refreshing to us–but people were DYING! Some people (and critters) just don’t belong in some places, like the Grik in S. Africa. A guy down the road raises those hairy Highland cattle from Scotland!!????!!! They seem happy as clams now, but I sure feel sorry for them in the summertime. They might as well be Yaks. All they do is stand, gasping in the shade. Must be Hell for them. Then again, there are the oft-mentioned feral hogs which can adapt to anything. (I bring them up a lot because, besides doing my best to eradicate them (impossible), they are fascinating to study from an evolutionary adaptation standpoint since not only can THEY adapt, physiologically, within their own lifetimes, they have a profound and noticeable effect on the evolution/adaptation of the wildlife they compete with). I’ve mentioned that rattlesnakes don’t rattle anymore, at least the survivors in pig-infested areas don’t, but there are other examples of altered, INSTINCTUAL behavior that other animals employ (with varying degrees of success) to survive in pig-infested areas. Ground-nesting birds have been among the hardest hit, their eggs and chicks being particularly vulnerable not only to the keen-nosed rooting of pigs, but to the coyote and bobcat populations that have soared with the pigs. (More prey, more predators, though the big boars and largest sows have no natural enemies). Maybe Coy Wolves (around here) and “real” wolves elsewhere might be a bother, but coy wolves remain few enough that they haven’t developed the sophisticated pack hunting techniques of their size-cousins and still behave more like coyotes. The big cats will certainly kill pigs but avoid the big “tuskers” because their cases make them almost invulnerable and, frankly, since the great cats of N. America are primarily solitary hunters, it is too easy for them to get hurt taking on a big pig. Very wisely, cats (unless they’re desperate) recognize that no meal is worth getting seriously hurt over. In any event, all these predators also prey more on deer fawns, and with their larger concentrations have come increased incidences of rabies. Everything is connected. But I digress. In spite of everything, and after being hammered down near apparent extinction in places I frequent, the quail and wild turkey populations have begun to recover. Why? I don’t know yet. Does anyone else? Maybe it is simply because the advance of egg-eating fire ants has been slowed at last, but have ground-nesting birds (field larks too) also devised new strategies to protect their nests? I continue to observe carefully, but even if I discover the answer, I’ll continue to protect them as best I can.

          24. By Alexey Shiro on

            I agree completely, Taylor, it is really fascinating to observe, how animals, birds – even fishes! – adapt their behavior to fit into the new conditions. Especially astonishingly, when animals, who are usually assomed to be “not human-friendly” find their ways into urban environment.

            I remember, how I was astonished several years ago, when I first learn about a beaver families, living in Moscow parks. And about five years ago, I personally saw a least weasel (“laska” as we call them) on the log near (not even in!) Timyriazevsky Park – inside the Moscow! And she wasn’t even afraid of me; she explored the log, climbed back and forth, while I stand no more than two meters from her. I agree, that it isn’t very exotic animal in Russia – but to meet one in big city was pretty awesome.

          25. By Steve Moore on

            Taylor, you must like living on the edge of danger… “her inner reptile”?

            So far January has been a hoot in New England.. frigid at new years, 55 degrees last week, plunge again this week, then more warmth in the coming days. We usually have a January thaw (just in time for the big snowmobile weekend) but EVERY WEEK? For all we know, Alexey will have his shorts on next week, at this rate.

          26. Taylor AndersonsBy Taylor Andersons on

            The “inner reptile” crack was strictly in reference to a predisposition toward heat and sunshine. It had nothing to do with blood temp, cold calculation, stealthy, patient, and ruthless predation, or any other attribute commonly associated with reptiles . . . :) By the way, it was 6F here this morning and Beloved was not Pleased.

    2. By Alexey Shiro on

      Must admit that “Tactical Roar” is surprisingly good for modern military-themed anime.

    3. By Nestor on

      I did watch Zipang but was disappointed by the abrupt unresolved ending. Recommend the manga instead, good story! I’d compare it more with The Final Countdown movie than D-Men. Walker and Mahan got caught in a sideways jump into in an alternate universe but still in their same time period. The Mirai (the JASDF destroyer from Zipang) didn’t leave our current universe, they jumped back in time from the early 21st century to WW2, still a very clever read about ethics and morality during war. Will check on the rest, thanks for the suggestions!

  4. By Joe Thorsky on

    Seward’s Destroyermen’s Folly-Moscow NY on the Hudson
    (An 1860 Czarist Russian Navy Insertion/Hibernating? Rival of NUS/Union)
    John Cook mp3 Schooner Fare
    Grik Hi-Flyer

    Guys-Shouldn’t some shipbuilding resources should be devoted
    redirected and diverted towards the creation of a robust submarine
    fleet and logistics as a counter to the LOT. An Atlantic Surface
    fleet at present not very practical considering obvious military
    threat the Lot poses.

    1. By Justin on

      For the umpteenth time Joe, the complex parts (pressure hull, batteries, etc) needed for even an S-boat makes them about as feasible as guided missiles right now. A surface fleet only has to sink once, yes?

      1. By Lou Schirmer on

        Plus, they have to get some expertise with welding. AFAIK they’re still going with rivets. Bad welds on a sub=death.

      2. By Alexey Shiro on

        Frankly, guided missile – or at least guided bomb, dropped by carrier plane – are MORE feasable for Union.

    2. By Steve Moore on

      Well, there’s a happy medium that could be struck, I think for the time being and learning curve. What do you fellows think of a shallow-water diving bell? With a chain link drape surround going down maybe 15′ or so from the bottom of the bell, it could be used for salvage and a few other uses, and in the meantime, accustom Cats to working underwater and at multiple atmospheres.

      It’d be nice to have a platoon of Aqua-Griks (the 2002nd Chill-Chap Command?) but we haven’t figured out if they don’t taste good to flashies or not. And I don’t think there are too many Cats that can fit into Walkers’ diving rig.

      Joe, didn’t think Schooner Fare made it outside of New England. Went to several of their live gigs back along a few decades.

      1. By Joe Thorsky on

        Next to a forced attendance at a Bob Hope USO Christmas Show,
        didn’t do very many concerts but did do a lot of music listening
        and bar hopping in Chicago wayback in my distant youthful past life.
        Even got to listen a wide variety of music; some of it even freely
        provided on Maxwell Street.
        Swing a Cat mp3 /The Corsairs
        A Kat named Patrick Finnegan mp3 Schooner Fare
        We’re here to drink the Whiskey mp3 /Schooner Fare

        Harboring and displaying of a “can’t be done, no way-no how, won’t work, just isn’t done” conventional thinking mindset is in every respect uncharacteristically unacceptable and alien. This becomes especially true whenever the conversation veers into vigorish speculation and debate over “what’s going to happen next?!” in Mr. Anderson’s next Destroyermen installment.
        So I thawed you guys would have already have gotten weened and wheedled away from all of that pro bono status quo “going nowhere” conventional thinking by now. A wee bit more iglooed cultural perspiration and inspiration seems to be what’s needed in the here and know.
        A recent example:
        Instead of just technically postulating over a fleet of dirigibles fully capable of launching and recovering of fighter and bomber aircraft. Consider radically updating and upgrading of this potential strategic capability by simply constructing and maintaining a second fleet of dirigibles with the added ability of both launching and recovering and rearming and ferrying of torpedo/mine equipped midget submarines.
        This asset could act as a positive cost effective force projection and force multiplier component and be a quite effective military counter.
        Do also remember, it was from the precursor actions and exploits of the Revolutionary War “TURTLE” and the Civil War “C.S. HUNLEY” that would eventually lead to Holland’s spectacular success in the research and development and demonstration of the modern submarine.
        Work to make it happen.

        1. By Justin on

          Even better: they could build twin-engined pulsejet bombers which can drop torpedoes that launch micro-torpedoes straight at enemy battleships!

          Joe, while creativity is always laudable, there’s thinking outside the box, and then there’s pie-in-the-sky ideas (subs), and then there’s straight-out fever dreaming (zepps that carry subs). The latter two don’t help the Allies one bit.

          1. By Alexey Shiro on

            Well… to be exact, in 1930s USSR toyed with the idea of miget submarine, air-transported by large flying boat. The APSS – Aeropodvodny Samodvijushiysa Snaryad (Aerial-submercible self-propelled projectile) was a very small, 8-ton miget sub, designed to be carried between the hulls of twin-hulled MK-1 flying boat. The original idea was, that the APSS itself would be unmanned, radio-controlled submercible – sort of mobile torpedo platform, which could be planted near enemy port and remote-controlled from the plane to strike the enemy passing warship.


            Two prototypes were build and tested, but eventually it was stated that “the remote control technology must be developed more to make such concept viable”, and the development was shifted toward conventional miget subs (which were too heavy to be air-transportable).

          2. By Joe Thorsky on

            Everything and anything (Even those elements you’ve suggested) becomes possibly probable in Mr. Anderson’s Destroyermen Universe.

            Although it’s not in my uninebriated nature to want to squash, repress or suppress any of those remarkable latent talents of imagination, innovation and creation that makes you who you are. In the context of scoring on the basis Conceivability, Feasibility and Doability you rating so far would be Triple A Plus for Conceivability and Incompletes in both Katagories of Feasibility and Doability.
            Might a refresher course of History be of more help and of greater assistance to you before advancing any further along this tack.
            I would therefore strongly suggest examining the website
            History of Scapa Flow
            Would another 3.2 Draft also be Frothcoming?

            Good post Alexey!!!

          3. By Justin on

            Joe, the question isn’t “how useful are subs?” – everybody knows subs would be useful. It’s “we don’t know how to build subs, so should we try and fail at building them… or try and succeed at something we DO know to build?”

            Once again: right now, without the materials or method for a pressure hull, electric motor, batteries or anything else, they’re stuck at a Hunley – which, may I remind you, killed her whole crew and sank as soon as she hit the Housatonic. Reddy ain’t callous enough to send kamikazes out to sea against League sonar and depth charges.

            //The APSS – Aeropodvodny Samodvijushiysa Snaryad (Aerial-submercible self-propelled projectile) was a very small, 8-ton miget sub, designed to be carried between the hulls of twin-hulled MK-1 flying boat.//

            Flying boats, sure. Not a zeppelin – if it can’t drop a 1.5t floatplane and stay intact (established last December), then an 8t midget sub’s going to be virtually impossible.

          4. By Lou Schirmer on

            They already have most of the stuff they need to build a sub, albeit a primitive one. They have good steel now, pumps, valves, adequate batteries & torpedoes. The one thing they lack is welding experience for the pressure hull. Sure, any moron (see my face in the mirror) can “weld”, but it takes experience & testing to find out how to do them without making the metal brittle, weak, or having voids in the weld, all of which lead to seam failure & a sub that submerges just fine…& stays there.
            It’s like the larger steel ships, heavy guns, fire control & next gen aircraft, they can do it, but it will take a few years to do it.
            An unmanned diving bell would be a good start to test things like welds, pumps, batteries, valves etc. They could run it remotely by cable from the surface, testing air compressor for blowing tanks, how far down the valves & steel are good for, endurance of batteries & what not. If you put a window in it Courtney may hijack it though.

          5. By Justin on

            I’ll defer to you, Lou. Though I can’t find the page where they started using electric motors.

            How “primitive” are we talking here? I can’t see the Union getting more than short-ranged green water boats like an oversized Holland or Plunger-class.

          6. By Alexey Shiro on

            // adequate batteries//

            Exactly the problem. They don’t have adequate batteries. At best they have “more or less workable batteries”, because they are complicated and – in 1930s – quite secret.

          7. By Lou Schirmer on

            //Though I can’t find the page where they started using electric motors.//
            They’ve copied the Walkers electrical generators, which are essentially driven electric motors. If you run them with batteries, they can drive stuff. By primitive, yes, something like a Holland boat, strictly for research & testing though. Such a boat would be a death trap against the LOT & not even be able to make the journey there in one piece. They have to start somewhere though. Been doing some reading & it’s amazing how long people have been working on subs & got really serious in the 1880s. One thing I forgot they don’t have yet was a diesel engine, but a gas engine would be almost as good, for a start.

            Alexey, batteries have been known for a long time in their era, so they know how to make them. I grant you they won’t be as good as a 1930s sub battery, but if they salvage the S-19, they may be able to produce something good enough for a sub test boat.

            Guys, I’m not saying their going to be able to produce a viable USN fleet boat or XX type U-boat immediately, that’s 20 years down the line, but if they want a sub, they have to start small. If they wanted to, they could probably come up with something like the U-19 (a 1910 design) in five years or so.


          8. By Matt on

            Correction Lou, they *had* good diesels they could have studied in S19. Last I heard she has a shallow grave at the moment unless they salvaged her again. That boat really has all they need to learn how subs work. Copying it is of course another problem altogether but there’s diesels, batteries, the parts and plumbing for dive ballast etc. I think a lot of the diving gear was stripped in her conversion but she still has a pressure hull. The real question is how willing are the they to salvage a war grave like that and is Reddy willing to invest in subs. A lot of destroyermen have no interest in diving in this world’s hostile seas but the League has proven it to be possible and effective. They had at least two subs we know about, the French not-Surcouf and a U-boat.

          9. By Justin on

            S-19 sank just off the coast of Madras… that’s at least 30-40m of water, much higher than a Home. No way to get at her without a shark suit and decompression chamber.
            Now, if a disgruntled League U-Boat crew decided to join up, then even a Type II plus her crew plus what’s left of S-19’s crew should provide enough expertise for the Holland-class.

            Still, if they can build a fleet of U-19s (notice all the “ifs”), they’re likely going to be small coastal vessels, spending the war defending the Cape or Caribbean. No Sydney Harbour raid or Battle of the Atlantic anytime soon.

          10. By Lou Schirmer on

            Right, no sub warfare for them for the foreseeable future, even if they are working on it.

      2. By Justin on

        Beats the crap out of the canvas tent they used in an earlier book, that’s for sure. Not sure how useful it’ll be for hull work though, seeing as you’d have to actually reach a hand out of the chain drape.

        //It’d be nice to have a platoon of Aqua-Griks (the 2002nd Chill-Chap Command?) but we haven’t figured out if they don’t taste good to flashies or not.//

        Gri-kakka too. Amphibious doesn’t necessarily mean aquatic.

        Here’s hoping there’s a giant octopus clan (inspiration for the Lusca?) hiding out in the Caribbean – then all the Allies need would be limpet mines and a bunch of instructors.

        1. By Steve Moore on

          Well, they’ve got a drydock for that now. Thought about hull work, tbut realized that flat and round do not make a good seal.

          Hope they never introduce the designated hitter rule in Cat baseball. It could ruin the alliance. Wonder if the Imperials are into lawn bowling, since they don’t have foxes (or hounds) for sport?

          1. By Joe Thorsky on

            Steve I’m sure they’re more interested in Badmitton
            as an alternative.

          2. By Lou Schirmer on

            Probably, playing bowls was the thing even back when the Armada came up the English Channel. Sir Francis Drake was allegedly playing when the news came & insisted on finishing before sailing. Good morale booster, since they couldn’t sail until the tide ebbed anyway.


          3. By Justin on

            They’d probably have cricket, tennis and horse racing too (they brought horses, right?).

            Not to mention proto-football, before it evolved into rugby, soccer, handball, gridiron football, etc. That should nip that clustershag in the bud.

          4. By Steve Moore on

            True, Joe. Never thought of badmutton, probably easier to play on board ship, unless you’re bowling for beanbags

  5. By Paul Smith on

    If, by some miracle, a studio decided to start making Destroyermen movies, how much would it cost to make Walker? They spent how many million on Titanic? Admitted it was a much larger ship. I assume there are complete blueprints available in the naval archives. Imagine, the first four-stacker in a century!

    1. Taylor AndersonsBy Taylor Andersons on

      Interestingly, there’s a non-profit actually trying to put together funding, etc. to build a seaworthy 4-stacker. Primary purpose is for a museum, but just think of all the movies that could use one–in addition to D-men. I expect the construction costs could be made up fairly quickly. Don’t know how realistic the “real thing” idea will wind up being, but I’ve been in contact with the people involved and they’re pretty dedicated and sincere. We’ll see. I posted contact info for them on my facebook page and I think Charles did too, on the Association Page.

    2. By Justin on

      A lifesized model of the Arizona for Tora! Tora! Tora! cost about $1.5M at the time ($12M now); Walker is significantly smaller, so as long as the director doesn’t need to build a brand new Wickes, all should be well.

      The problem’s going to be more about the Grik and Lemurians.
      Game of Thrones stopped using the direwolves as much because realistic CGI fur was MORE resource-intensive than the dragons. Keje, Adar, Chack, Risa and a hundred anthropomorphic cats – where even the slightest error would trigger the uncanny valley – will probably torpedo the budget.

      1. By Alexey Shiro on

        Well, I anticipate that in next 10 years the realistic fur problem would be solved. This is only a question of CGI capabilities, after all…

        1. By Justin on

          Solved, sure, but how long before it’s cheap enough to use in every episode? I suspect that by the time Destroyermen finally makes it to HBO, it’ll be Mr. Anderson’s daughter or grandkids signing off the rights.

          1. By Alexey Shiro on

            With all respect, but 10 years ago the CGI was still too costly to use in most TV series at all)

          2. By Nestor on

            Worried about how big a budget to spare for a somewhat unknown potential target audience? Start with a traditional but very popular medium: 2D cel animation (well, technically it’s current digital equivalent). If the animated TV series is successful then graduate to full 3D CGI movies.

            I admit I’m kinda biased here but methinks this has endless possibilities for rich character development. The USS Walker is not really the star of the show, it’s the crew.

          3. By Alexey Shiro on

            Well, if we could persuade some good Japanese anime studio to make a series…

      2. By Steve Moore on

        What about game-style animation? Then you add in a constant income stream, and the ability to act out your own tactics. Seems to work for Star Bores.

      3. By Matthieu on

        The problem is not the cost, it’s the market. GoT is attractive for the whole world. Now who would be willing to learn the story of a bunch of 41 americans lost in the middle of nowhere? It assumes an adult and mature audience (oxymoron).

        1. By Steve Moore on

          Ditto for Game of Drones. Now the TV is full of that crap, and they ALL have English accents, even the French characters.

        2. By Justin on

          Stories of Americans in the middle of nowhere seem fine for international audiences… so long as they’re fighting something like zombies, monsters from another dimension, or tribal deinonychus in sailing ships.

          Nah, if anything’s going to shrink the audience, it’s the Forties culture, long speeches, tech porn, morality tangents, lack of sociopolitical world building, and general emphasis on battle scenes or preparing for battle scenes – that’s a pretty niche market.

          1. By Nestor on

            Justin is onto something here. It’s a matter of emphasizing what a general audience will find captivating. A WW2 era setting is always interesting as long as you don’t delve into Forties pop culture. But it’s even better since we’re already mixing an “Avatar” and “Jurassic World” vibe into it.

            If by tech porn you mean all the nautical and munitions terminology then sure, keep that in the books for us to geek out. However, on a screenplay put it all on full visual display, as detailed and accurate looking as possible and add a steampunk/dieselpunk vibe to it for good measure. Just make sure to keep it in the background and emphasize the story and the character and world building.

          2. By Justin on

            Well, the problem isn’t the tech porn so much as how takes up so much book space. A whole lot of character interaction revolves around how a gun/ship/device works, how its OTL counterpart worked, how easy/hard it was to build it, why “that” instead of something else.

            By contrast, TV audiences seem to be more responsive to an Nantucket or 1632 type of time-travel story: people, politics, new places, world-building, uplifting, culture, culture clashes, occasional history/pop culture jokes. Best to relegate the tech to simple “oh hey, a new gadget!” scenes.

          3. By Matthieu on

            Plus the fact that a new place is not expensive. Ship battles with thousands of griks and lemurians means a huge budget… You can end with two trees, a small set and finve actors!

    3. By Alexey Shiro on

      Probably not much. The virtual graphic moved forward a lot since the Titanic, and became MUCH cheaper. You doesn’t need to build a full-scale (or near full-scale) ship model anymore.

        1. By Alexey Shiro on

          Exactly. Basically, the most of “outside” scenes could be done by CGI. You need movie sets generally for specific scenes.

  6. By Steve Moore on

    Battening down the hatches, fellas, a snow ‘straaka’ headed for the East Coast. Warning to all ships at sea, and those headed to the market to stock up on milk and bread, even a 25 kilo bag of K-9 crunchies. Wrapping up my outside work today so I have lots of paperwork for tomorrow, as well as work on my ‘fan-fiction’ piece.

    1. Taylor AndersonsBy Taylor Andersons on

      Good luck Steve. Don’t freeze! Been a tad chilly, down to single digits even here in Texas (practically on the Equator compared to where you are!) My friends in Wyoming are buried in that nasty white stuff.

      1. By Alexey Shiro on

        And here, in Moscow, we have +5° C, zero snow and grass sprouting everywhere. This is… strange.

        1. By Justin on

          No kidding – there’s snow in Tallahassee, and none up here. Friggin’ climate change…

        2. By Charles Simpson on

          Ghosts of Napoleon and Hitler, “Perfect time to invade Russia General Winter is asleep.”

        3. By Paul Smith on

          in Phoenix, we have mid 70’s (low 20’s C)& no rain for months! That’s strange for us.

        4. By Steve Moore on

          Wondered how you were doing, Alexey. East Coast survived, bitter cold this weekend, but heat wave (20’s and 30’s F) coming

          1. By Alexey Shiro on

            I’m doing… fine, I suppose? The weather are weird. According to the meteorological data, this is the warmest January ever recorded in Central Russia. There are no (literally – no) snow, some rains, the temperature is above zero all day and only slightly below during night, and the grass is sprouting again.

            Today I have clouds, sunshine, again clouds, than rain, than hailstorm, than wet snow, than sunshine again in the matter of hours, man! I’m really baffled by all this…

          2. By Justin on

            Sounds like a typical winter in the Pacific NW – it can snow, rain and shine all on the same day!

          3. By Matt on

            The last week has been bitterly cold. My coworkers cheered when the thermometer read 19 degrees. That’s how cold its been, we celebrated when it almost broke 20. Most mornings have been single digits, I think one day I saw 0 when I left the house. Today is in the 30’s though and practically summer compared to what we’ve been having.

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