March 17

General Discussions

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Pass of Fire




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Posted March 17, 2016 by Taylor Anderson in category "Uncategorized


  1. AvatarBy Mason McCormick on

    Possible ship names:
    Battleships: Fort Atkinson/ Defiance, Filpin, Balkpaan. (Not Balkpaan bay)
    CA: Navy clan territories, Manila, Filpin islands.
    Knowing Captain Reddy, would the American Navy Clan use NUS states, cities, and such to also name their ships? Just a guess, but would the new CL being built in Manila be named Manila, or in honor of Lawrence’s people after their Island?

    1. AvatarBy Matt White on

      Unlikely to get many BB’s. Reddy isn’t a big fan of them. Rather he puts his faith in naval airpower. So we probably wont see any proper battleships after Savoie, unless they capture more or get one from a future transfer.

      There has been talk on the boards of potential designs for CA’s or pocket battleship types.

      1. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

        “Reddy isn’t a big fan of them”

        Considering how many problems he have as soon as any BB appeared on the other side, he should already start to reconsider his position…

        1. AvatarBy Justin on

          I think the short-term plan is to have the Republic supply most of the battlewagons – after all, they’re the ones who’ve got most of the experience with big guns.

        2. AvatarBy Matt White on

          Not arguing the wisdom of his decisions. Just how he feels. IMO for naval air power to be truly decisive they have a bit more development to make. In our world battleships weren’t truly obsolete in fleet engagements until right about when the Pacific war kicked off. A year or two earlier and the kido butai would not have been all that effective. The Union has a long way to go before theor strike aircraft are a true threat to a modern battle fleet, I keep saying they need a supercharger. But eventually they will get there. Reddy is looking to the future and in the long run he is right. I just don’t think they are there yet.

  2. AvatarBy DONALD JOHNSON on

    Be careful now we’re liable to have the entire destroyer man series killed off by covid 19

  3. AvatarBy DONALD JOHNSON on

    Be careful now we’re liable to have the whole destroyer man series killed off by an early breakout of COVID 19

  4. AvatarBy Mason McCormick on

    Just wondering, how many casualties do you think each side has suffered as of Pass of Fire? The grik should be close to 2 million by now, or more, the Union at about 100,000 or less, the New Brits at 10-20,000, or less. The Doms should be at close to a million, with 500-1,000 grik bird dead as well. Repubs should be at a 5-10,000 by now as well. What do you think?

  5. AvatarBy Neal Potts on

    The Saunders-Roe Princess was the biggest all metal flying boat to ever be constructed. It even flew too, at least 47 times, two of which at the Farnborough Airshow. This aircraft was constructed during the fifties and aimed at being a luxury liner. It could carry 100 passengers with spacious accommodation including lounges, a bar, and restaurant all spread across two decks. The biggest issue with this aircraft wasn’t any engineering problem, but rather one with when it was built. When this behemoth took to the skies, it was already the 1950s and it had to compete with land-based aircraft. World War 2 did not help with any flying boat proposal, as a large part of that war was devoted to building airport infrastructure and developing bigger, better, long range bombers.

    That’s where our world differs from that of the destroyermen’s. With such a hostile sea, pilots take comfort in knowing they can land atop it, rather than crashing into it. Another large difference is the amount of development the Allies put into refueling outposts. I believe it’s mentioned that passengers can fly from the New Britain Isles all the way to Manila. It’s by no means nonstop, but the infrastructure is there and with it a driving need to improve upon existing designs and technology. An aircraft like the Saunders-Roe Princess may never exist in this world as it required a whopping 10 turboprop engines (though it’d be quite the story if it was swept there), but the ground is fertile for aircraft in the same vein to exist and the world is all the more interesting for it. So, what do you think? Are flying boats the future of aviation on this world?

    Inspired by the YouTube video What Happened To Giant Flying Boats? Saunders-Roe Princess Story uploaded by Mustard.

    1. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

      Well, the current favourites in civilian aviation would probably be Grik airships. Mainly because they are already in mass production, and there are hydrogen stations already established across Grik empire. Which is a very significant in therms of territory.

      1. AvatarBy Mason McCormick on

        But grik airships are of poor quality, and even if they do improve them, they are still going to be fueled by hydrogen, unless helium is easier to make than I thought. The Destroyermen most likely remember the Hindenburg, not to mention all the veteran Union pilots who know how easy it is to set them ablaze. But sure, use them for what their good for, but they will most likely focus on flying boats.

        1. AvatarBy Neal Potts on

          The strange thing about the Hindenburg disasters is that there were survivors. Despite the massive fireball from Hell, thirteen of the thirty-six passengers and twenty-two of the sixty-one crew, plus one one ground crewman died. Though many of the survivors had some pretty horrific burns. The Allies would likely be hesitant to adopt such crafts, but I imagine the Grik would keep at least a few in service. I believe by the book Pass of Fire there’s already something of a regular message service, so there is significant infrastructure for the craft.

          Personally, I find airships absolutely awesome so a future where there’s something of a competition between flying boats and airships would be exceedingly interesting!

          1. AvatarBy Doug White on

            Considering how awesome I think flying boats, airships and float planes in general are. It would be pretty pleasing to me if they could get the networks for the first two widespread, safe and burgeoning. If they ever get big airplanes with long range and higher speed these craft will become yesterday’s news, but in the meantime go baby go!

          2. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

            Well, actually it would be very advisable for Allies to commission Grik airships as sea patrol units. They are fighting the League now, which have submarines. And airships were proven to be excellent sub-spotters by two World Wars.

          3. AvatarBy Justin on

            There were basically two problems with the Hindenburg: highly-flammable doping, and too much hydrogen instead of an 8-9% hydrogen-helium mix. Both are relatively easy to solve.

            Now the fact that zepps have a fraction of the speed and lifting power of a plane, that might be a problem. And flying boats lost out because they’re generally less aerodynamic (the “boat” part).

  6. AvatarBy Mason McCormick on

    Would love to put the link to Dogfights: Death of the Imperial Japanese Navy, which is about the battle of Leyte Gulf, and how Taffy 3 fought off the might of the the Japanese navy. I can’t seem to find it, every video seems to be posted by a different person.

    To bad we can’t show it to Captain Reddy and the other Captains and their crews, it would be quite inspiring to them to see DDs and DEs fighting like that.

  7. AvatarBy matthieu on

    Dear Taylor, dear all

    I hope that you’re all well.

    Many of you are in the USA and I’m afraid that currently there is a global lack of consistency in the answer against the virus. The single relevant move is to stop any social interaction between people during at least 15 says.

    It does happen that I do understand well the models behind epidemiology (even if I’m an econometrican) as the maths are the same. The most basic model that you can imagine (the S-I-R) is a perfect example of what we currently face: an exponential trend (more accurately a logistic curve generated by differential equations but I will not get into details).

    Now what should be done:
    1) a global answer at least at the country level (not county nor state)
    2) a complete confinement during at least 15 days (3 weeks to one month is more probable)
    3) Funds have to come from the government. Otherwise the economy will not survive. Here there is a massive help (basically if you can’t work you get 84% of the net income from the gov) and you need a full health coverage.

    Here it’s shit but not that deep. I mean that the total number of cases is significant but the medical system can cope with them (for the moment). The real problem will appear one week from now.

    1. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

      Unfortunately it seems that long-pointed flaws in US medicare system – lack of universal health insurance, enormous cost of medications, insufficient number of medical facilities – became the web of fracture point under pandemic pressure. I hope that the urgent measures implemented now would be sufficient to take situation under control, for the sake of my friend and relatives in USA. But it became increasingly clear that the whole system must be taken under more strict control, IMHO.

      1. AvatarBy Lou Schirmer on

        Difficult to do Alexey. The government of the USA is specifically designed to limit it’s dictatorial powers in anything short of a dire emergency. However, those who want tighter control of the US population are using this event to further their agendas. We are in the process of willingly giving up our freedoms for “security”. If we allow the trend to continue, our elected “representatives” in the government will become our rulers in fact.

        On the subject of universal health care, it’s interesting to note many Canadians (with universal health care) come here for health care. I’ve noted in my travels that citizens of other countries with universal health care often complain of the long wait times, poor care provided or even denial of care due to age or other reasons & many of those go to countries with private care to be treated.

        COVID-19 is a flu variant & the media are blowing things totally out of proportion. Estimates vary, but the infection & death rates are similar between the standard flu which kills between 12-15,000 in the USA each year & COVID-19. As is usual, sadly, the highest death rates will be among the elderly. The COVID-19 rates are probably slightly higher due to the fact there was no time to develop the vaccine for it before it spread, similar to H1N1 some years ago. There was concern over H1N1 & the Swine Flu in the past, but nothing like the current frenzy of fear. However, breathless media ravings & fear mongering are in the process of destroying our economy. As Matthieu points out, people cannot “socially isolate” themselves & expect no economic repercussions. Even with massive governmental support, many small businesses & jobs will be lost. Large businesses will feel the effects also & be forced to reduce their payrolls. Reductions in international commerce, travel & tourism will impact the global economy, often in poorer nations which can ill afford the losses.

        One thing I do find terribly interesting is all these flu variants, year after year, arise in China. Coincidence?

        1. AvatarBy matthieu on

          “If we allow the trend to continue, our elected “representatives” in the government will become our rulers in fact”

          No link between “freedom” and behaving stupidly. If people stay home nobody will ask them to do so.

          “On the subject of universal health care, it’s interesting to note many Canadians (with universal health care) come here for health care”
          You seem to confuse many things. Most (well all) advanced countries havea a “universal health care” system. And it’s mandatory. and it covers everybody… and it’s far less expensive than your system. The difference lies in the way it’s funded. Some are really bad (UK), some are really excellent (Netherlands, France).

          “COVID-19 is a flu variant & the media are blowing things totally out of proportion”
          No. The death rate is 20 times the flu one… when everything is perfect. 10% of patients require hospital care. 5% need respirators. If none is available, the patient is dead. If you’re above 70, the mortality rate is above 15%. If you have respiratory problems it’s 6-9% whichever the age.

          “However, breathless media ravings & fear mongering are in the process of destroying our economy”
          This is probably the most uninformed comment that I could see ever. Right now people on earth are in full confinement and you say that the goal is “to destroy our economy”?

          “Even with massive governmental support, many small businesses & jobs will be lost”
          This is exactly why here the state will pay for everything this month (and probably next month). Restaurants are closed but they will not have to pay any tax this month, nor rent, nor employees (who are going to be paid by the state). Yes it will be expensive but it will save them and two month from now they will be able to open again.
          And what is planned in your state for all those SMBs?

          If you close now, you can save people and probably their jobs if you pay for that. If you don’t close you’ll loose both.

          1. AvatarBy Lou Schirmer on

            //The death rate is 20 times the flu one… when everything is perfect.// Not sure where you’re getting your numbers. I’m getting them from the CDC & Johns Hopkins & the death rate versus the number of infected is only slightly higher than the standard flu. Italy, Spain & Iran seem to have higher fatality rates at about 7%, but that may be due to the local medical facilities being inadequate. Even the China statistics are at 4%, & those numbers are probably skewed due to the rates in Wuhan. The numbers there are alarming, I agree, but that may be because of factors we don’t know about yet. If the fatality rates of Wuhan were reflected elsewhere, then I would be in total agreement with the isolation programs & business closures. But they’re not.

            No need to be insulting. I didn’t say the goal is to destroy our economy. I said the results of forcing business closures wholesale may do so. And yes the government is trying to develop an aid package for them, but if the response anything like the recession of 2008-2009, many small businesses are going to be lost in the process or have collapsed before they could even apply for aid. A large amount of fraudulent claims will impede the program as well.

            If “the state will pay for everything this month (and probably next month)” as you say, where does the state get the money for it? Taxes? We’re already running a massive deficit budget & tax relief for businesses will only make the problem worse. Eventually we’ll be in the same situation other debt laden countries are in, who can’t pay the interest on their debt, much less reduce it. Trade is being drastically curtailed, as well as travel & tourism, further cutting into tax revenues & income world wide. The usual response is to print more money, but that only goes so far before a nation’s currency becomes worthless. One way or another the impact of this worldwide is going to be huge.

          2. AvatarBy matthieu on

            “Not sure where you’re getting your numbers. I’m getting them from the CDC & Johns Hopkins & the death rate versus the number of infected is only slightly higher than the standard flu.

            This is factually wrong? The standard flu is 0.1%. This one is 2% (when there is no issue). Twenty times larger. Its well documented.

            where does the state get the money for it? Taxes?
            Not really. Debt is used massively (and given the current interest rate, its for free).

          3. AvatarBy Lou Schirmer on

            My apologies. I misread the percentage as a 1% for the flu as opposed to a 0.1% fatality rate.

            I still think the situation is not that dire. More people in the USA have died of the flu this season so far, than have died worldwide from Corona virus. Yes, we need to take precautions, yes, we need to develop a vaccine, but the measures being taken seem too draconian to me in this instance.

            And debt is never free. Current interest rates may be low or zero, but eventually you have to pay the piper.

          4. AvatarBy matthieu on

            This is a good question.

            Right now, seen from here, the answer from your government is really really bad.

            Given the problem the single intelligent thing to do is to act at the global / country level. All states should do the same thing at the same time otherwise it’s a mess and the virus can propagates.
            The second main issue is that your private companies act stupidly as the gov let them do. Example “”It’s pretty frustrating that we have celebrities and basketball players getting tested the same day,” said Dr. Damian Caraballo, a Tampa emergency room physician who had been quarantined for a week before learning he was negative. “But if you’re a doctor or nurse you can’t get tested [immediately]. You’re waiting six or seven days to find out your results.”

            It’s on the fow news website.

            Here the gov saif “ok guys, endgame for the moment, you’ll get paid for all tests and so on but now WE control supplies for masks and production and tests and we tell you who is going to be tested”.

            The absolute priority is given to med and paramedics with the best masks as we all know that if they get ill, we’re in deep shit. They get free gas, free hostels (to stay close to hospitals), free taxi to come back home, fast lines to purchase food and so on (the fast lines are for elderlies at 9-10 am and then for police/meds/firemen).

            The gov decided to pay for all med supplies around the countries, no question asked. The logic is that if you know that you don’t pay, you go to see the doctor (and you get paid med leave). They also negociated with trade unions to allow pull 24/24 production for maks and so on.

            Is it perfect? No. Far from that. But at least we all try to more in the same direction. I left home once during the last 8 days to get food for my family. I teach on Zoom.

    2. AvatarBy Matt White on

      I work in healthcare as IT in the US so I can give a from the trenches perspective.

      We are worked pretty hard at the moment. Both providers and all support staff which I fall into. Hours have been long and there have been non stop meetings via teleconference as the situation evolves. The system in general is stressed hard right now but we are keeping ahead of things here, if just. We’ve had to plan, implement and roll out telehealth services almost overnight. Non-essential staff are working from home and we are issuing PPE to everyone on site.

      Honestly, the state support has been the best. Local got caught with their pants down. The CDC were completely unprepared and while I appreciate the WHO calling out incompetence, they haven’t been any better. There is a PR battle going amongst health organizations right now trying to shift the blame and point the finger. Truth is, everyone wasn’t ready and we should have been. The information we were getting was contradictory and ever changing and someone really screwed the pooch on the tests.

      Most of that has been fixed now. This is going to be a major learning point for the world’s healthcare systems. And we will come out better on the other end. As morbid as it sounds I feel thankful that this happened with COVID, which is bad but not worst case, first than something like plague. If it was something with double digits mortality we would frankly be screwed right now. When something like that does happen, and it eventually will, we will be able to nip it in the bud.

      I know the members here are smarter than the average bear so I shouldn’t have to tell you to listen to advice coming from authorities. Please stay home and don’t go out unless you have to. Don’t panic buy. Logistics are not impacted, this is not a hurricane so don’t treat it like one. If you are going to prep anything, keep your rifles clean. In some places where they really clamp down there may be a rise in break-ins. I have a friend who is a cop and he says they are seeing a rise. Lots of newly unemployed people out there.

      1. AvatarBy Lou Schirmer on

        You’re quite right, this is an excellent opportunity to work out the bugs in the system, so we are ready when something really lethal comes along.

      2. AvatarBy Taylor Anderson on

        Amen Matt, and stay safe. EVERYBODY stay safe. I’ve noted in the past that whenever there is a disaster of some sort, somewhere, people here always care for those they know are affected. Matthieu when the attack on the train occurred, Don when there were raging wildfires in California, even me when hurricanes or wicked tornadoes loomed. Many others, when we know where they are. I suppose this is the first time we’ve all been under various degrees of threat by the very same thing (except getting old, of course), and I’m thinking about you all right now and wishing you the very best. Take care, all, and be safe and well.

        1. AvatarBy matthieu on

          You’re completely right

          News here: confirenment extended. I expect 5 full weeks. I teach fully online. I leave home once a week to get food. May daugtther learns at home as the teacher sends some things to do. My wife is at home too (she works for the agency for unemployed people….)

          We are in the same deep shit this time and the amount of losses is related to the way the most stupid human will behave (saying that I see the shit going up).

          Right now only two of my students are ill but they are all around the world now (they came back home and I have some from Texas, India, Taiwan, Brazil, Portugal… globally 30 countries). We chat a little bit and some countries are going to be hit hard.

          Right now we have 2300 dead in France but my models put the minimum death toll at 20.000… I hope that I’ll be wrong .

          Watch this one:

  8. AvatarBy DONALD JOHNSON on

    Was wondering how russia was handling the covid 19. Not one word anywhere I can find about russia. What can alexi tell ud

    1. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

      To put it simply – uncertain. Officially, the number of infected is still in low hundreds, zero death (one very old women with Covid19 died, but it appears she have a mild case, and died from other chronic illness), and the majority of cases are in Moscow. Unofficially, rumors are that situation is worse, but of course, rumors tend to exaggerate.

      The population generally is rather indifferent. There were a short period of mild panic in Moscow, when the (ultimately false) rumor about the whole city being closed to quarantine spread. Nervous peoples rushed into stores to buy in bulk the supplies of toilet paper (yeah :) ) and buckwheat grain. The situation was made hilariously worse by the officials insistence that “there is no reason to panic, honestly!”, which peoples interpreted as “if they say so, then there ARE reasons to panic!”. Still, after two days the whole thing calmed down.

      In therms of preparedness, public places are closed, mass activities are cancelled, peoples are encouraged to stay home and work at home if it possible. The mandatory two-week self-quarantine is established for those who arrived from other countries recently, and street cameras with face-recognition software are used to track the violators. Most problems seems to stir from bureaucratic incompetence and negligence; we have a really embarrassing number of peoples just running from hospitals because they think that if they feel themselves good, that they do not need to stay here anymore.

      So, that’s how the situation in Moscow is.

  9. AvatarBy Mason McCormick on

    Would the Destroyermen consider starting up the Olympics on this new world? Maybe even participate with the League? Of course this will be around the 1950-1960s when things have calmed down a bit with the LoT.

    1. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

      It would be quite hard to organize any kind of fair sport competition, considering that there are numerous different sapient species here. Humans, Griks, Lemurians have distinct advantages and disadvantages, which essentially made competition… impractical, if you could from the very beginning predict the clear winner.

      Imagine our world problem with transgender male-to-female sportsmen, increased two orders of magnitude.

      1. AvatarBy Mason McCormick on

        I know, I was thinking of having all humans, all lemurians, all grik games. With maybe baseball having a mixed team.

      2. AvatarBy Justin on

        And what’s the point, when the members likely can’t even agree on what sports to have? It’s likely that nobody but the Union cares for baseball. The Empire, maybe, but it’d be more like cricket.

        More likely that the Republic’s soccer/chariot/jousting/hockey leagues occasionally host games in other nations or set up franchises like American ones – last check, the NFL wants to have a team in Mexico City.

        1. AvatarBy Mason McCormick on

          Well, if they compete with the LoT this way, instead of shooting each other, they might not end up fighting in another war.

          By the way, which M3 do they mean? The Stuart or the Lee?

        2. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

          Well, chess, probably? It would be interesting to compare chess abilities of humans, griks and lemurians.

          1. AvatarBy Justin on

            Depends… modern chess, xiangqi, latrones, tafl, or some weird Republic hybrid?

            For more detail, the Romans’ game was like Go but with pawns and a king. All pieces move like rooks and capture by surrounding; capturing the king requires four pieces.
            The Norse went a step further by putting the king in the centre and having to escape to the edge of the board – might be attractive to a country with a history of Grik sieges.

          2. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

            But organizing any chess-like game would would be a matter of just rule agreements; not calibrating the physical advantages/disadvantages)

          3. AvatarBy Justin on

            There’s definitely less barriers than physical sports, but you still need to make sure everybody knows the game well – even Carlsen and Kasparov will have problems if suddenly bishops can move sideways. I doubt the playing field will be level for at least another generation or two.

    2. AvatarBy DONALD JOHNSON on

      i can see it now kick boxing between humans and grik.

      1. AvatarBy Doug White on

        Ha! A Lot of foot padding or body padding for the opponent which sort of defeats the purpose….but both competitors do get to live. Which IS kinda the point, right?

        Also hi Matthieu….been wondering how you are doing, glad that you are doing well!

  10. AvatarBy DONALD JOHNSON on

    Hope my 75 year old body lives long enough to get the next book. I would bet that book printing will be greatly curtailed in the next few month and even then shipping will be curtailed as well.

    1. AvatarBy Lou Schirmer on

      Right there with you buddy! Getting long in the tooth myself. Be well.

      1. AvatarBy Michael Clitheroe on

        We all agree that with all things going on we all keep well and those we love too. I’ve seen several books I’ve pre-ordered being put on hold at the moment so that, although a pain, is small potatoes.

  11. AvatarBy Mason McCormick on

    About what the League could send to aid the doms, how many oilers would they need for, say 2 BB’s, 3 CA/CL’s, and 10 destroyers? I would think they would have bunkers on Ascension Island, so would that mean they still need the oilers, or just not as many?

    1. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

      Hard to say. On average, Trento-class cruiser carried about 2200 tons of oil for 7.700 km of cruising speed. So, it could cross Atlantic without the need to resupply but need to be fueled immediately after. Same (roughly) for battleships.

      For destroyers, things are somewhat more complicated, because for Italian ships it greatly depend on the shape of their boilers. Italian boilers generally were of short service life; they worked really great, when new, but quickly wear themselves out. If I recall correctly, by mid-war, the range of Italian destroyers dropped to nearly half of normal. Each destroyer needed about 500 tons of oil, which in theory gave them about 5000 km range.

      So in short, the described force would need approximately 15.000 tons of oil to be fully loaded. And would demand approximately 25.000 tons of oil to cross the Atlantic, of which 10.000 tons needed to be carried for the destroyers refueling. Assuming that they would need at least one full supply to operate here, the numbers would raise up to 50.000 tons total of which 35.000 tons must be hauled by tankers.

      The average Italian tanker of this era carried about 5000 tons, so they would need about 7-8 tankers. Actually, about 10 would be close.

      1. AvatarBy Lou Schirmer on

        Then you have to add the fuel for the return voyage, if necessary. Granted, they’ll probably leave some ships there to hold any territory taken, but some will be returning to the Mediterranean. Some of the oilers will have to go back for more fuel anyway, if the operation takes more time than they planned for & they may have escorts.

        1. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

          Of course, I just calculated the amount of fuel that must be delivered with the fleet. The return amount could be add later.

      2. AvatarBy Matt White on

        And that’s just to get there. It’s not including fuel for actual operations once they have arrived.

        Doing that all on a pure line of tankers going from the med to South America would be untennable given Alexey’s analysis. So they most likely have a fuel dump somewhere along the way.

        1. AvatarBy Taylor Anderson on

          Hey guys. I love this conversation. Glad to see everyone still at it despite the craziness. Bless you all and take care. I figure this is a good time to throw out WHY I love that you are running around this particular tree. For your speculation pleasure……never forget that Matt Reddy, despite his many faults, and face it, unschooled strategic thinking (though he has done pretty good by winging it from time to time), He is, first, last and always a DD skipper. Imagine how that will effect his thinking on this very pertinent topic.
          Be well, friends!

          1. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

            Thank you, Taylor! And be safe, too!

          2. AvatarBy Paul Smith on

            I remember the attack on the Hidoiame. He took out the tanker first! It was further away than Hidoiame, but was Capt. Reddy’s first target. If the Alliance is able to kill enough tankers, the LOT will have to dedicate more assets to protect their tankers.

          3. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

            One problem – Alliance depend on tankers also.

          4. AvatarBy Matt White on

            The skipper is a Matt, and if I know Matt’s, and I think I do, we are a clever and resourceful bunch.

            He’s had his eye on the fuel gauge this whole time. And his justified worrying over it has pushed Letts to build the logistical powerhouse they have. That also means he won’t miss something like how the League is supplying their ships.

            And thanks for the kind words. The logistics situation has improved. We have more tests available and now PPE can be issued to all staff. We are also over most of the technical headaches but some vendors are wearing my patience thin.

          5. AvatarBy Justin on

            Good thing the Union just got a sub… though I’m guessing the League’ll have escorts and ASDIC?

          6. AvatarBy Matt White on

            @justin it’s hard to say. Passive sonar aka hydrophones were developed in WW1 but ASDIC better known as active sonar was invented by the British during WW2 in our world. It’s entirely possible one of the members of the League developed it in their timeline but we can’t know for sure.

            However our newly loyal German submariners may very well know the answer. And if the league does have active sonar and the uboatmen known about it then the Union can work around it. And don’t forget, the Union has active sonar, even if it’s a crude implementation.

          7. AvatarBy Matt White on

            It just occurred to me, that’s another difference between Walker’s timeline and our own. In our history ASDIC was a secret and advanced tech the British shared with the US as part of Lend-Lease. Wickes class destroyers wouldn’t have had it. But Walker does. Which means ASW technology and likely doctrine were more advanced earlier on in their world than ours. The Y gun is another example, projected ASW mortars were a mid war development for us in the form of hedgehog but the destroyermen who crossed over in early ’42 were familiar with it. Clearly the WW1 ASW efforts of the allies were a generation ahead of our world. They had passive and active sonar deployed to such a degree that old WW1 destroyers were already equipped at the start of the war.

          8. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

            “. The Y gun is another example, projected ASW mortars were a mid war development for us in the form of hedgehog but the destroyermen who crossed over in early ’42 were familiar with it.”

            Er… Y-gun was invented in 1917. It is very-very old system, mostly considered outdated when the World War 2 started.

            “Hedgehog” was not just a depth charge thrower – they existed for decades before it. “Hedgehog” was forward-firing salvo depth charge thrower – a specific weapon to kill the submarine in front of the ship, while sub was still in sonar beam and its position known precisely.

            You see, the Y-guns, K-guns and rear depth charge racks basically all intended to be used with hunter ship above the submarine. Problem is, that when ship is above the submarine, it could not track sub anymore. And submarine could (and they do) use this to steer off course, change depth, ect. And (if not hit) then slip away under cover of depth charges detonations.

            The “Hedgehog” was supposed to remedy this flaw. It worked by saturating the area in front of the ship with a salvo of contact-fuse charges. I.e. it could attack the submarine while it was still in the beam & tracked, AND it would explode only if hit achieved (thus if all charges missed, there would be no noise capable of hiding submarine, and the subhunter could then proceed with usual depth charge attack from K-guns and rear racks).

          9. AvatarBy Lou Schirmer on

            The main problem with the WW1 era Y-gun was it used up valuable centerline space on the small DDs of the time. Our heroes appear to be using a modified deck edge design to be able to fit them onto a Wickes class DD & keep the Nancy & torpedo mounts. Where our Y-guns would throw a depth charge to either side of the ship, theirs throw both charges to the same side.

            Actually the US did develop active sonar systems before WW2, but I don’t know how widely deployed it was. By the time the US entered the war the British ASDIC was probably better developed due to the pressures of two years of submarine warfare.

          10. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

            I do not see how you could make Y-gun fire to one side.

    2. AvatarBy Lou Schirmer on

      If I was them, I’d have a staging/refueling point in the Azores instead of Ascension Island. Ascension is too far south & would be a waste of fuel & time to stage through for a Caribbean campaign.

        1. AvatarBy Lou Schirmer on

          Bound to be something better than Ascension Island out there for where they’re headed. The Canary or Madeira Islands are also an option. Even Cape Verde would be better. Might even be something completely different like Respite Island.

        2. AvatarBy Justin on

          The Azores sit between three of the world’s largest plates – if not the nine islands we know, then something else has to have emerged over the last 65 million years.

          1. AvatarBy Mason McCormick on

            Thanks, forgot about the Azores. So, it would take them a while to prepare, and if they do, they might not take as many ships as they could for fear of all the oil being used right? Or could they easily do this?

          2. AvatarBy Lou Schirmer on

            Can they deploy? Yes.
            Can they deploy easily? No
            No overseas deployment of that size is easy, even if you have fresh ships & crews & a large logistical capability, which from the sounds of things, they have none of. Also, they may not have been keeping their tankers machinery in good shape, since until the last year or so, they thought they didn’t need to truly exert themselves to keep the Union occupied. They’re going to need transports & cargo ships also, if they want to establish a decent sized base or conduct any landing operations in the Caribbean & they’re probably in even worse shape than the tankers.
            Or this could just be a raid in force to destroy any Imperial & Union fleets, do a little shore bombardment & head home, letting the DOMs cleanup our land army. Only Taylor knows.

  12. AvatarBy Neal Potts on

    I couldn’t help but notice from Mr. Anderson’s Facebook that there’s something of a contest going on for some advanced reader copies of Winds of Wrath. The prompt is “favorite quotes,” which can extend to scenes and places I believe. I think I may have something in mind, perhaps it will be an excuse to write an essay.

    Anyway, what are some of y’alls favorite scenes and bits from the series, or if you have too many to list then what immediately comes to mind?

      1. AvatarBy Michael Clitheroe on

        The death of the cat gunner at first Aryaal. That single image of defiance in the single survivor willing to sell their life to give others the chance fight on has real power I think.

        1. AvatarBy Taylor Anderson on

          Thanks guys. Please post these over on the Facebook page if you would ( and can—I won’t penalize you if you can’t, obviously, but it would be nice if folks over there can see that you think). So, Lou, you really liked the mountain fish stampede? I’m glad. I wonder as much as anyone what others think of various aspects of the story. You realize that one was foreshadowed several books back, right?

          1. AvatarBy Mason McCormick on

            Speaking of mountainfish, when do we get to see one belly flop a League battleship?

            Other parts that I like are the first contacts with friendly civilizations, second as well in Big Sals’ case.

          2. AvatarBy Lou Schirmer on

            I just loved the epic biblical spectacle of it all. As far as foreshadowing in previous books, are you referring to the MF’s avoiding loud noises/sonar pings? I could see the idea blooming in the guy’s head as he was flying over the MF gathering, but I thought they’d start small, herding them in with sonar before stampeding them with shock & awe.

          3. AvatarBy Neal Potts on

            I remember catching that detail. I believe COFO Reddy reflected back on using mountainfish for target practice to train his pilots and they manged to redirect them to some degree. I think they used that in a minor capacity to clear a way for a fleet heading for the Galapagos/Enchanted Islands. I quite enjoy little foreshadowing moments and callbacks to previous events. Makes the world feel that much more alive and dynamic.

          4. AvatarBy Taylor Anderson on

            Yep. Neal pretty much nailed it. Thanks Lou!

  13. AvatarBy Mason McCormick on

    What kind of planes would the French have? IIRC someone mentioned them all having their own planes, would the French planes be scout planes then, Fiedler didn’t mention them in PoF.

    After the grik and doms are defeated, would the GA attack Ascension Island, leave it to the league, blockade it into surrender (highly unlikely), or if they attack use as a live fire proving ground for new weapons? Currently we know the league is arrogant and shouldn’t have all that many defenses in place, though enough to slaughter any grik or dom attack with wooden ships (heck Ramb V could do that with those 4.7s) definitely an airfield with say 5 MMes 1-3 SM 79s and 2-4 Stukas. If things go badly for them in WoW they might reinforce their holdings there or just abandon it. As for when they would attack, somewhere around 1947-48 when they all should have bolt action rifles, and breach loading artillery and better tanks, after a thorough sea and air bombardment?

    1. AvatarBy Steve White on

      Without getting into the Ascension Island issue, what kinds of planes would the French have?

      Likely, not good ones. The French air industry did not distinguish itself in the 1920s and early 1930s. The first good monoplane that industry produced was the Morane-Saulnier 406 which didn’t enter service until 1939. In Taylor’s timeline, this plane isn’t there. The early 1930s sea the Dewoitine D.500 which was a monoplane that was open-cockpit, slow (compared to others) and underpowered. Prior to that the French used a variety of Nieuport-Delage biplanes and sesquiplanes.

      So I wouldn’t see much of a French influence in Tripolitanian aircraft in Taylor’s timeline. I could be wrong.

    2. AvatarBy Justin on

      There’s the possibility of C.714s and Potez 630s, albeit a slim one since none of the books have mentioned them.

  14. AvatarBy Justin on

    Shower thought: half the Republic’s army is taller than the other half. Do the Cats stand in the front line and humans at the back? Would’ve been hard to thrust a spear if the guy ahead of you is a foot and a half taller.

    1. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

      You means the old Republic army? The modern one is a XIX-century army, that did not use any spears. Bayonets on rifles are doing the same job with less problems.

      1. AvatarBy Justin on

        Testudo, tercio, column, firing line, same difference – it’d be a lot more efficient (if racist) to put the tall species at the back and the short species at the front. Unless they get flanked, of course.

        Come to think of it, “one size fits all” armour isn’t going to work either, because you definitely need two sizes. At most the humans can wear Cat helmets.

        1. AvatarBy Mason McCormick on

          They might separate them into sections, a human section, and a cat section of the line, or if they mix them when they deploy they automatically deploy to the most convenient positions.

  15. AvatarBy Mason McCormick on

    If/when the league find out that U112 is with the GA and the GA find out, could they start a kind of propaganda campaign directed at the German contingent in hopes of winning them over? Any ideas on what the different reactions could be for this?

  16. AvatarBy Joseph R. Thorsky on


    Getting lost in all this discussion so far is our own collective enthusiastic willingness to superimpose our 2020 socio-economic-political and cultural standards and practices burdened by our own preconceived beliefs and biases onto to a world stage that’s largely occupied and is almost completely dominated by species extincting predators. Taylor’s narrative as has been constructed so far, and which is now being presently developed, is uniquely transformative in the sense that it breaks all traditional stereotypes, conventions and norms by having the military battlefield becomes subordinate and dependent to the subtle constraints and need for political, economic social and cultural alliance building and acceptance.
    I would especially note here to everyone that for the NUS Americans who had not experienced The CIVIL War or its aftermath. The issues of their era remain largely deferred unaddressed and unresolved and pending. Theirs is a history of one founded upon a US Constitution having only the Bill of Rights and its 10 Amendments and with Senators being selected to office by the State legislatures.
    Some literary accommodation is required to be applied here as well.

  17. AvatarBy Lou Schirmer on

    Anyone else thinking a year is a bit long between books?
    Especially with a long series like this one has become.
    I just think the publication pace set by the folks putting out the series is long enough that people start to loose interest.
    I’ve noticed the excitement & comments on each new book tends to start dying off sooner each year. The discussions here used to rage almost until the next edition came out. Now, not so much. We’re currently down to the odd desultory remark here & there, often rehashing old discussions.
    This is no reflection on Taylor, each book is indeed excellent, but with a longer series, I think the publishers should consider shortening the publishing cycle to maybe eight months instead of a full year. That would help keep the interest, enthusiasm & sales momentum up between books. If Taylor’s up for it, maybe he could discuss it with the editor & publisher.

    What do you folks think?

    1. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

      Well, part of the problem is that just many of questions that piqued our interests in earlier books were already answered in later) There were many “unknown” things about the League, the NUS, even about the Griks. Currently, most of those questions are more or less answered, so it’s inevitable that the discussions are winding down a bit.

    2. AvatarBy Taylor Anderson on

      Well actually, though the “one a year” model is the publisher’s preference, I guess it is for the best since it takes me every bit of of a year to write each installment. And it’s not just because I’m a tediously slow typist (although that’s part of it) but I think I manage to write about as fast as I think stuff up—counting all the research (a lot of which is never used)—that goes into the story. I did knock out the first three books in under two years but they were not quite as complicated. Maybe my noodle works slower than it used to, but even then, those first books nearly killed me.
      As for the volume of discussion here, I think Alexey may have the right of it. In addition, when the series first started, this was it as far as discussion was concerned. Now there’s Facebook and other things that people spend a lot more time on and it directs them to all sorts of other forums without effort. I’m not sure they take the time to visit websites like they used to. I don’t really know, but that’s what folks tell me. In any event, I expect the upcoming Winds of Wrath will spark quite a bit of discussion, at least for a while, because it will leave people with a lot to think about.

      1. AvatarBy Steve White on

        There are a number of discussions at the Facebook site on a daily basis. I check that out nearly every day.

      2. AvatarBy Doug White on

        Oh jeez, the lat sentence of Taylor’s leaves me with a sense of dread and foreboding. But….thinking is good, right?

    3. AvatarBy Steve Moore on

      I agree with Taylor. Since he started, the ‘world’ has expanded to nearly the entire globe, with numerous sub-plots and campaigns. All of that involves research, fact-checking and eliminating errors. Which all takes time, almost like debugging code. I’m surprised you can keep up with a book a year, Taylor, in addition to all your other activities. The more you try to compress this process, the more the art slides into formulaic piddle, like Harlequin romances for the sci-fi set.

      One a year, Taylor, that’s a pace that most successful and inventive authors follow. Just don’t condominimumize yourself.

  18. AvatarBy Joseph R. Thorsky on

    Taylor, Lou, Steve, Alexy Everyone

    You’ll witness the turning of Swords into Plowshares when Unicorns again repopulate the Earth and Pigs begin to learn to fly.

    Irish Rovers (No relation to works of Gilbert O’Sullivan)
    The Unicorn
    A long time ago, when the earth was green,
    There were more kinds of animals than you’ve ever seen.
    They’d run around free while the earth was being born.
    And the loveliest of them all was the unicorn.
    There were green alligators and long-necked geese.
    Some humpy-backed camels and some chimpanzees.
    Some cats and rats and elephants, as sure as you’re born.
    And the loveliest of them all was the unicorn.
    Now, God saw some sinning, and it gave him pain.
    So he said, “Stand back, I’m going to make it rain.”
    He said, “Hey, Brother Noah, I’ll tell you what to do:
    Build me a floating zoo.
    And take some of them green alligators and long-necked geese.
    Some humpy-backed camels and some chimpanzees.
    Some cats and rats and elephants, as sure as you’re born.
    And don’t you forget my unicorn.”
    Old Noah was there to answer the call.
    He finished up making the Ark just as the rain started falling.
    He marched in the animals two by two,
    And he called out as they went through,
    “Hey Lord, I got your green alligators and long-necked geese,
    Some humpy-backed camels and some chimpanzees.
    Some cats and rats and elephants, but Lord, I’m so forlorn.
    I just can’t see no unicorn.”
    Then Noah looked out through the driving rain.
    Them unicorns were hiding, playing silly games.
    Kicking and splashing while the rain was pourin’.
    Oh them silly unicorns!
    There were green alligators and long-necked geese,
    Some humpy-backed camels and some chimpanzees.
    Noah cried, “Close the door, cause the rain is pourin’
    And we just can’t wait for no unicorn.”
    The Ark started moving, it drifted with the tide.
    The unicorns looked up from the rocks, and they cried.
    And the waters came down and sort of floated them away.
    And that’s why you’ve never seen a unicorn, to this very day.
    You’ll see green alligators and long-necked geese,
    Some humpy-backed camels and some chimpanzees.
    Some cats and rats and elephant, but sure as you’re born,
    You’re never gonna see no unicorn


    A Destroyermen Operetta
    From the Gilbert and Sullivan Archive ( midi files )

    An American Slanted Songfest that has positively no relation with
    Disney’s Fantasia, Sorcerer’s Apprentice or The Three Calabrios
    Also not to be confused with The Pirates of Penzance, HMS Pinafore,
    Trial by Jury and The Mikado.

    The Yankee Consul


    No. 2 – Duet and Slow Dance – “Bi” and Papinta

    ” This world is so censorious a lot, so prone to scandal, lies and Tommy-rot…”

    No. 9 – Finale Act I

    “Ever ready, eagerly we rally, never halt or dally, staunch and steady in retreat or sally…”

    No. 14 – Song – Leopoldo and Men’s Chorus

    “Oh, Love and War, they are on a par, for many’s the hearts they harrow…”
    No. 17 – Finale Act II – Abijah and Chorus

    “It was not like that in the olden days, which have passed beyond recall…”

    A Yankee Tourist


    No. 1 – Opening Chorus

    “Here we are a-taking tea, as cozily as well can be;  not a tho’t of shell or shot, for dreadful war disturbs us not…

    • No. 3 – Song – Grace Whitney and Men –
    • “In childhood’s happy hour, when story books read true, when knighthood was in flower, and there were fairies too…”

    • No. 4 – Song – Copeland and Chorus –
    • “I’m a lucky Yankee Rabbit, and I’ve got the trotting habit, on the liner off for China, or from Maine to Mexico…”
    • No. 5 – Finale Act I –
    • “Show us the man who did the deed, reveal to us our victim.  We’re goin’ to jab and carve and stab the man, for we have picked him…”

    No. 6 – Opening Chorus –

    “Roll, barrel, roll! … Oh, forty days and forty nights a-workin’ on the wharf … Roll, barrel, roll! …”

    • No. 9 – Song – Captain O’Malley and Legion –
    • “Oh, Irish lad, your Irish dad has taught you in his day.  Shenannigan or Brannigan, he never ran away…”

    • No. 10 – Principals’ Ensemble –
    • “The trouble with the most of us is that we love fight and fuss, at little things we snarl and cuss and keep our tempers sore…”

    • No. 11 – Finale Act II – “The dogs of war are growling, they’re goin’ to bark and bite!  The dogs of war are prowling, preparing for a fight…”

    • No. 12 – Opening Chorus –
    • “Allah is good to hardihood, and the faithful who do his will;  he bids today ‘Go forth and slay’, so we go to the fight to kill…”

    • No. 13 – Song and Chorus (soloist unspecified) –
    • “The morning, they say, is the hour when the lark makes music in the sky…”

    • No. 14 – Finale Act III – “Ah, dog of war, when screaming shots and bullets swiftly go by, ah, I hope the fray won’t get so hot you’ll get the hydrophobia…”

    The Filibuster


    • No. 1 – Opening Chorus and Trio –
    • “We heard today they’d sail away with a cargo that is contraband…”

    • No. 2 – Song – Scuttle and Chorus –
    • “A privateer without any fear of a nor’-west gale, or an enemy’s sail – that’s me…”

    • No. 4 – Song – General Gonzales, with Cortez and Pizzaro –
    • “A rebellion promoter am I, with a talent superb for intriguing…”

    • No. 6 – Song – Dolly and Girls –
    • “Oh, isn’t it fine to stand up in line and give them a last hurrah! …”

    • No. 7 – Song – Seabrooke and Men –
    • “He loves liberty and equal rights for all, no matter what pedantic laws may say about it…”

    • No. 8 – Finale Act I –
    • “Sad it is to say goodbye to heroes who will do or die! …”

    • No. 9 – Opening Chorus –
    • “You’ve heard no doubt that a soldier delights in hurleying burleying, cut and thrust fights…”

    • No. 11 – Song – General Gonzales, with Cortez and Pissaro –
    • “Graft!  Graft!  Everywhere you hear the word…”

    • No. 19 – Finale Act II – “Oh deep is the love that we bear for our Motherland, but tyranny’s wrongs we can never endure…”

    No. 22 – Song – Scuttle and Chorus – “‘Tis not my style to idly boast of my exploits by flood and field…”


    Brian Boru

    • No. 13 – Solo – O’Donovan –
    • “A fool is he who dares to say what fate doth will he must obey;  the life that he shall lead on earth was preordained before his birth…”

    • No. 14 – Song – O’Hara – “Paddy had a wondrous pig that gave him good advice;  he bought it from the fairies, a good deed was the price.”


    MIDI Files copyright © 2011 Colin Johnson   All Rights Reserved.

    All that’s left to do involves the selection of an agreed-upon Director
    and a cast of performers (A Casting Call)

    1. AvatarBy Donald j johnson on

      Remember that a unicorn is nothing more than a horny horse

  19. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

    Happy New Year, guys (and gals)! With you the very best in next year!

    1. AvatarBy Doug White on

      Alexey Happy New Year to you as well….and most especially to our honorary leader Taylor Anderson! To everyone else I hope your year’s are the best yet.

  20. AvatarBy Joseph R. Thorsky on

    Taylor and Company
    This 2019 Hanukah and Christmas Season should shamefully remind us all of our own frailty and individual imperfections as Human beings when we blindly and foolishly follow and succumb to ignoble Irreligious behavior and unbecoming uncharitable conduct.
    If we are to better ourselves and conduct our future affairs in a manner that’s appropriate, civil and consistent with these chaotic times; I would direct everyone’s attention to the following book and a website for the needed encouragement, inspiration and hope to model our behavior on.

    Memories of Chaplain Life, by Fr. William Corby
    Chaplain of the 88th New York Infantry Regiment of the Irish Brigade

    And the postings of the Rev, Peter M Preble

    “Dominus noster Jesus Christus vos absolvat, et ego, auctorite
    Ipsius, vos absolvo ab omni vinculo, excommunicationis interdicti,
    In quantom possum et vos indigetis deinde ego absolvo vos, a pecatis
    vestris, in nomini Patris, et Folii, et Spiritus Sancti, Amen.”

    “May our Lord Jesus Christ absolve you; and by His Authority I
    Absolve you from every bond of excommunication or interdict,
    so far as I am able and you have need. Moreover, I absolve you
    from your sins in the name of the Father, and the Son and of the
    Holy Ghost. Amen”

    General Absolution given to the Men of the Irish Brigade
    By Fr. William Corby,
    Chaplain of the 88th New York Infantry Regiment
    of the Irish Brigade on July 2, 1863 the Second Day and Bloodiest Day of Battle at Gettysburg.
    In your observance of the spirit of Hanukah and Christmas my best wishes go to you all for a
    happy and joyful Holiday celebration!!!
    Joe Thorsky.

    1. AvatarBy Taylor Anderson on

      You as well. Joe! By the way, ever since I got a new truck a few years ago–that would not play cassettes or CDs–my collection of period music has mysteriously disappeared. Most distressing at present, (as I am in need of some popular Mexican-American War music–and you can read into that what you will) not only is mine missing, I can’t remember many of the titles I’m looking for. Worse, when I can, I can’t find them performed in the “earlier” way, with period correct lyrics. (Most all Civil War songs were holdovers, with “updated” lyrics). Imported music and lyrics are relatively easy to find, but it seems US/Mexican War matter has grown more difficult, not easier to locate on line as time goes by. Anyway, I know you have a fine musical library, Joe, and I’m happy to hear suggestions from everybody!

      1. AvatarBy Michael Clitheroe on

        Well with the Nussies in the main story more and more we may have a back story moment or maybe another short story when the phases of Mars volume three comes out. I assume it will be a land battle based volume as we have had air and sea.

        As someone still ploughing through a Indian Mutiny novel rewrite it is so hard to find suitable period music to help with the feel. Then I started writing a prequel set in the French Indian War so needed suitable period music to massage the mental processes so I can understand the need to find the right tunes to kick start the brain.

        And noel and best wishes to one and all in the destroyermen fan club and world

      2. AvatarBy Joseph R. Thorsky on

        Taylor, my old friend!
        It is indeed most fortuitous that you have sought help at a time
        when I am most able to give you my complete undivided attention
        towards satisfactorily completing your request before I am recalled
        to a new temporary duty station at Houghton, Mi.
        Almost the entirety of my audio and video collection was luckily
        converted to mp3 and avi/mp4 formats that could be best listened
        and watched by the hearing and seeing disabled (partial blindness and Tinnitus )
        using a Bose sound system.
        In keeping with the Spirit of Hanukah and Christmas, I will gladly transfer my entire
        collection of music and videos (22 Genres, 2032 Albums and 30,457plus songs
        to a 1 Terrabyte Transcend portable hdd and gift it to you to make use of and enjoy.
        With concerns about and having due respect to your privacy; are there any conceivable
        ways to insure your receipt occurs before the 2020 New Year?

        1. AvatarBy Taylor Anderson on

          Joe, you are a real pal and I can’t tell you how much I appreciate your offer. If you can give me a shout via my contact feature on the site, we can establish more secure communications. Frankly, I’d be happy for anyone who regularly contributes here to have my e-mail etc, but a lot of other people see these posts. Nothing against them either, obviously, but in this day and age, you just can’t be too careful.
          Thanks again, Joe—and thanks again to all the “regulars” here, who are always happy to help in their own ways!

          1. AvatarBy Steve Moore on

            Thanks, Joe. Maybe Taylor can write a musical now!Complete with dancing Grik, flamenco infantry and ‘Cat chorus girls…

            Merry Christmas, folks.Although I’m looking forward to Bastille Day, when the new volume comes out.”Allons tous les amis de Destroyermen, le jour de joie est arrivee….” (Sorry, Mathieu, my french is only good enough to order pommes frites in Quebec, and even then, they put vinegar on them).

        2. AvatarBy Taylor Anderson on

          A musical is just the thing! Silva whistles the 1812 overture in the aft crew’s head… Blood Drinker infantry doing the Macarena in ranks! Synchronized mountain fish swimming— the works!

          1. AvatarBy Steve Moore on

            Taylor, you are a man of many talents, I’m sure you could create a masterpiece. Just… no opera, please?

          2. AvatarBy Taylor Anderson on

            I don’t know Steve. Isak, Gilbert and Tabby could do a…..steamy opera.

          3. AvatarBy Steve Moore on

            Jeez, I’d rather see Niwa get a cuddle bunny first. Guy’s bee celibate since 1942.

          4. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

            “A musical is just the thing! Silva whistles the 1812 overture in the aft crew’s head… Blood Drinker infantry doing the Macarena in ranks! Synchronized mountain fish swimming— the works!”

            Imagine the “Swam Lake” performed by ice-skating Griks – they should have perfect ice balance due to their tails!

          5. AvatarBy Nestor on

            There are a couple of Pandora playlists I listen to while I draw anything D-Men related. I find great inspiration while I listen to Barbatuques ( whenever I’m drawing lemurians.

            Every time I listen to above song for example, I visualize a troupe of colorfully dressed lemurian musicians performing on stage during a Baalkpan festival.

          6. AvatarBy Donald j johnson on

            I envision a grik ballerina spinning and whacking their partner with their tail

          7. AvatarBy Doug White on

            Funny and weird at the same time, but then I have no TV, but funny nonetheless.

  21. AvatarBy Jeff on

    Big Boobs, eh? I liked it but don’t want to drop any spoilers. I’ve enjoyed To Slip the Surly Bonds and will probably order the other books in the series.

    1. AvatarBy Michael Clitheroe on

      Me too it answered a few questions and left more to be filled in as I hope they get to join the allied cause and add their story to the bigger one

      1. AvatarBy Justin on

        I’m guessing they somehow made their way to Baalkpan and joined the general mix of “background humans who we don’t know or care about until they become plot relevant.”

        1. AvatarBy Michael Clitheroe on

          The third volume has recently been released of phases of mars with another Taylor Anderson story which I assume will tie in with the destroyermen world for those interested

  22. AvatarBy Nestor on

    Here’s a short but amazingly intense Polish animated film I found on Youtube: that practically blew my mind. Left me a bit choked up too! One thing that mesmerized me was how closely it matched my image of the aerial dogfight over Zanzibar between 3rd Pursuit Squadron and the LoT Macchi-Messerschmitts.

    1. AvatarBy Steve Moore on

      Great artwork. Wonder if he does cover art?

      Apropos of nothing else, re-reading Maelstrom and ran across the passage where Becky is almost 10 in January 1943. Do Imperials mature as quickly as ‘Cats do?

    2. AvatarBy Doug White on

      You know in some ways this film reminded me of Wizards, but probably just because of the similar stylism. Pretty powerful message.

    1. AvatarBy Jeff on

      OK, I’ll bite. I’m not into the level of detail you guys are but love the series. Just made another pass through the whole thing.

      Taylor – yes, Leon Rippy would’ve made a fantastic Chief Gray. Took me a while but I get it now and have him plugged into my imagination’s database. And thanks for the word Plazivy that I wouldn’t have encountered otherwise. Sitting around the family table yesterday on Thanksgiving I realized it fit someone I encounter like a glove. My new private descriptor for him. So I’m giving thanks, day late …..

      Having finished Pass of Fire and wondering what First Fleet will use against the League I had a couple of thoughts. One is that I’d get there a.s.a.p with all the modern steel hulled ships available and kill Leopardo – defeat in detail before the rest of their fleet shows and alleviate the NUS supply issue for a start. You’d think that First Fleet could do that at some cost even before we find out what new ships the Republic will add to it.

      I just started a book by Charles Lockwood and he described his subs as the only warships available at the time that could be sent immediately to make useful contact with the enemy. I’d use U-112 to pick off whatever capital ships I could enroute – but it’s not in theater. Those 20 DDs they have are likely a bit out of practice with their ASW warfare and probably wouldn’t be expecting it in any case. Obviously it can transit The Dark and I wonder about The Pass. Would come in awfully handy and I hope it does, along with the ‘disconcertingly capable’ German contingent of the League. The Union hasn’t wasted anything it’s paid for yet and I doubt it’s about to start.

      As for Muriname’s torpedo bombers, Esshk’s Baka and the return of Halik ; just speculating that over the next several books that League assets at least in North Africa have a problem. Chief Gray is now Leon Rippy in my mind’s eye but sorry, Halik’s still The Gorn. Other than Godzilla I’m at a loss to conjure up another image :)

      On a small note, with BAR magazines and 1903 Springfields I’m surprised we haven’t seen an Air Service variant.

      1. AvatarBy Steve Moore on

        U-112 needs diesel fuel, refitting, and torpedoes. Probably main-gun rounds as well. All currently unavailable in Alliance stocks. However, if Reddy can bring diesel refining solution to NUS, they can produce diesel there, hopefully. Still need the technical expertise to refit U-112, though. Additional thought. How many Raiders can U-112 carry?

        Assuming I’m Oriani; how do I support my 20 DD’s? Do I try to seize a NUS oil installation, since Doms have none? Are there any isolated NUS facilities that can be seized? I have no radar, no ground troops other than Dom forces with single-shot weapons and dinosaurs. Maybe set up my oil fields on Trinidad/Tobago? Grik-birds need to be trained to NOT attack LOT vessels, perhaps ID panels?

        Seize a Florida or Bahamas location for a FOB, at least temporary, while building main supply base at Trinidad/Tobago. TT also closer to interdict Alliance supply routes.

        Meanwhile, the RRP had better get busy with a naval aviation base on West Coast, near Walvis Bay, to scout supply routes to NUS. At least 4 Clippers, plus some Nancys, P-1’s or Cantets for scouting coast.

        Power projection starts with logistics unless you’re beating up the guy next door.

        1. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

          *Assuming I’m Oriani; how do I support my 20 DD’s?*

          Probably with tanker convoy from Mediterranean. With the replenish base, established on some Caribbean island.

          *I have no radar, no ground troops other than Dom forces with single-shot weapons and dinosaurs. *

          Incorrect. The League fleet would almost for sure took some marine troops with it. While they may lack heavy weaponry, even machineguns & mortars would be enough to dealt with any possible NUS resistance.

          1. AvatarBy Steve Moore on

            Valid points. But what did they arrive with, and according to Taylor, they don’t have much of industrial base to project a cross-ocean attack. Remember, they were the ‘point of the spear’, so to speak; normally, logistics convoys would have followed, and any pre-placed supplies would have been lost.

            And all that takes time. If I’m the LOT, with all my spies in the RRP, I’d send my DD’s south along the coast of West Africa to catch the Allies at their choke point, the Cape. Sink Walker and the other DD’s, as well as Gray, and the Allies are screwed. Even the Kaiser’s new ‘blue water’ navy is probably toast.

          2. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

            Must point out, that they were transferred with a good part of a PORT. So, while port was clearly damaged a lot, it also have a lot of supplies and resources here…

          3. AvatarBy Jeff on

            Surcouf definitely expended torpedoes but we don’t really know for sure about U-112. Was it involved in the Mahe ambush? It might’ve been suggested but I can’t remember if it did. We don’t know exactly what ordnance she still carries. We do know the Allies intended to use S-19 as far west as Madras so they have the ability to produce and transport a fair quantity of diesel fuel. I don’t think the maintenance U-112 requires would present an insurmountable technical challenge, especially with the assistance of its crew. Not the first submarine they’ve had to deal with and this one’s in much better shape than S-19. It must’ve been able to transit the Dark and maybe could transit the Pass as well. It might make a good stopper for that particular pipe. It might not make the perfect attack submarine but would certainly be an inconvenience and would have to be a factor in their planning. It was a threat to First Fleet and it would be a threat to any other.

            I’m assuming the capture of Savoie and defection of U-112 won’t stay a secret for long. Even with a load of its (probably temporarily) irreplaceable stores either of them could certainly make themselves useful to the Allies in a dire situation – the sword not used when you need it most might get discarded.

            The LoT would support whatever force they send the same way they did everything else – forward operating bases and support vessels. In their conquest of the Med they were essentially ‘beating up the neighbors’. Even their original invasion force wasn’t intended to project itself across the Atlantic. In terms of their preparedness for ASW or anything else, one of Walker’s advantages in the fight with Hidoiame was it’s experience. The LoT has been a bully with no other vessels capable of standing up to them. Until now.

            But why send the whole fleet? They know what the Allies have, or think they do anyway, and still have to keep the peace at home. Imagine the amount of fuel alone necessary to move all that – they probably couldn’t project more than a fraction of that power at any one time. They could still assemble a comparatively overwhelming force minus the big Italian BBs.

            As for the ‘disconcertingly capable’ Germans – I took it as a hint from the series future rather than a nod to our past. The League isn’t monolithic and apparently has dissent from within – from what Gravois considered a credible if small faction. As for our Germans, if you were living in France in 1940 you would probably agree with the term and save the debate about their efficacy for historians.

          4. AvatarBy Taylor Anderson on

            Very good discussion. Just to clarify, Reference has been made to another “smaller” German boat that had been on station before U-112 arrived. There has also been understandable speculation that I broke my “no real war record” rule with Surcouf, but I did not. It was remarked that the big French boat looked like her, and they may have even thought it was her since she would be the only example they were aware of, but she was never officially referenced by name by anyone who would know it. And the existence of U-112 herself implies the type, while still just as unsuccessful, was dabbled with a little more vigorously in the Leagues origin world—so its reasonable to suppose there was more than one “Surcouf type” there. All this is consistent with a longer delayed embrace of naval air on that world as well. I guess my point here winds up being that Matt and the Grand Alliance will ultimately have to counter an enemy strategy based on prejudices, philosophies, tactics, and even …. personal ambitions slightly different from what they—and we,given our historical understand—might be inclined to expect😬

          5. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

            If I recall correctly, Surcouf was supposed to be the lead ship of four-unit class of ” croiseur sous-marin”. The other four were cancelled due to First London Treaty, but France insisted on finishing the Surcouf, because they put a lot of design effort into her & wanted to see, how it would work.

            The actual design of Surcouf actually dated back on 1921, when French Navy started to evaluate big gun submarines. Three desgins were prepared: “H” with 7-inch gun, “I” with 10-inch guns and “J” with single 12-inch gun. The 10-inch gun design was favored (if I recall correctly), but Washington Treaty of 1922 forbade placing guns above 8-inch on any non-capital ships.

            So… seems that we could assume that in League origin world there was a Washington Treaty (since the sub carried 8-inch guns), but no London one (because there were more than one “Surcouf” in CES navy)

          6. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

            “As for the ‘disconcertingly capable’ Germans – I took it as a hint from the series future rather than a nod to our past.”

            I just dislike the notion of German being some kind of uber-soldiers with wunder-technology, which became… quite annoyingly common post-war. Especially the technological part.

          7. AvatarBy Taylor Anderson on

            I gotta agree with Alexey on that, and I’ve deliberately steered away from ANYONE being Uber soldiers—although there are a few individuals rather than groups who might qualify. But that’s always true, isn’t it? I mean, elite forces do certainly exist, perhaps even in “my” world to a degree, but even they often rely on extraordinary individuals to lead or inspire them.

          8. AvatarBy Justin on

            Funny thing about leaders: they’re not really changing people around them, so much as convincing people to change themselves. All they really need is a push.

            //I guess my point here winds up being that Matt and the Grand Alliance will ultimately have to counter an enemy strategy based on prejudices, philosophies, tactics, and even …. personal ambitions slightly different from what they—and we,given our historical understand—might be inclined to expect//

            Well, we know that they’ve got a hard-on for battleships, political infighting and arrogantly lording over the “untermensch…”

          9. AvatarBy Jeff on

            //I just dislike the notion of German being some kind of uber-soldiers with wunder-technology, which became… quite annoyingly common post-war. Especially the technological part.//


            There are those who continue to bang the uber-Nazi myth even harder than you might realize, and not in a historical context. Many of them ‘UFO enthusiasts’ and ‘breakaway civilization’ types. Really. It’s one thing to debate a particular point, it’s something else to concoct that sort of nonsense, – yet people do ad nauseum. I’ve got better things to do than stare at Google Maps looking for the entrance to the secret base on Antarctica. Like maybe go to a library.

            The LoT’s Germans must have done something to earn that description (I think it was Gravois ruminating who applied the term) and has been pointed out, they’re not ‘our’ Nazis any more than the Imperials are ‘our’ Brits. The Kaiser has a tail in this world. I missed the reference to U-112 relieving a smaller boat and speculate that the League’s late emphasis on naval air will prove interesting. I suppose if Pete and Dalibor Svec can change their thinking with Halik then an adjustment or accommodation with the portion of the League that First Fleet is about to encounter wouldn’t be out of the realm of possibility. The Allies could certainly benefit from something other than another knock-down drag-out fight at this point.

          10. AvatarBy Taylor Anderson on

            That’s absolutely what REAL leaders do, Justin. They inspire those around them (sometimes up the chain of command as well as down) with the confidence they need to do the job. Bad leaders can destroy good troops. Perhaps the most tragic though are the “good” leaders who KNOW they’re good and start arrogantly expecting the impossible from those they believe are there only to support their own greatness. Napoleon springs to mind but there are many more. I put MacArthur with Napoleon. Above him in arrogance, below him in talent. What do you guys think? More examples?

          11. AvatarBy Justin on

            Jeff: Somehow, I doubt the French or Italians will be as willing to quit the League as the Germans were.

            Mr. Anderson: Alexander, for one – talented, but would’ve kept following his “destiny” until he hit China. Custer and Goering would seem to qualify too.

          12. AvatarBy Taylor Anderson on

            Good ones, Justin—and good point about Alexander—though he does get credit for finally listening to his troops. Not that he had much choice. On the other hand, if he hadn’t died, he probably could’ve rolled up the whole Med and kept the love of his troops. He also never abandoned whole armies to their doom.

      2. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

        *I’d use U-112 to pick off whatever capital ships I could enroute – but it’s not in theater.*

        She is not exactly in top shape, and she is not exactly the best hunter-killer either. She was designed mainly as surface raider, which could also dive, if needed. Not the kind of sub that could efficiently stalk the enemy squadron.

        Most importantly, how she would ever found the League fleet? The ocean is big. Submarine without additional reconnaissance have little chances (next to zero, actually) to “just meet” the fleet.

        *Those 20 DDs they have are likely a bit out of practice with their ASW warfare and probably wouldn’t be expecting it in any case. *

        Actually, they probably would. They would seek for mountain fishes, and also they have no reason to assume that Alliance have no underwater capabilities. They knew, that Alliance already build planes and steel warships. They must assume that they might also have submarines. While the probability is low, it is not that it’s zero.

        *Would come in awfully handy and I hope it does, along with the ‘disconcertingly capable’ German contingent of the League.*

        Nah, Germans are good in creating impression of being capable, but their actual performance in naval warfare of WW2 was quite mediocre.

        1. AvatarBy Steve Moore on

          Alexey, I agree with you more than disagree. But U-112 would know where the LOT has to go, and in the shallower waters of the Med, I don’t know how much experience the LOT has with mountain fish, since they just threw away all the knowledge gained by Hoffman.

          Remember, the LOT has been sitting at Christmas Island for three years or more. They’ve probably got a damn good idea what the Allies have… and don’t have.

          Although Taylor’s writing fantasy fiction, most of it is pretty well grounded in what would have been thought possible at the time. Lockeed, Douglas and other American aircraft manufacturers were builing plywood planes in the early 30’s, as I’m sure European and Russian builders were.

          As as for the Germans not being capable, it’s pretty apparent that these Germans don’t have Herr Hitler getting in the way of progress. OK, so they did make a few major screwups on their own, like building tanks too heavy for bridges or roads, but most post-war aviation success in the US and the USSR depended on German technology. Tanks, well, the Soviets found that success on their own, without the problems of having knuckleheads in US Army procurement to deal with.

          Thanks for picking apart all my arguments. Back to the drawing board, Steve.

          1. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

            “but most post-war aviation success in the US and the USSR depended on German technology. ”


            It short – it’s a myth. Most of post-war aviation success came from US and UK wartime research.

            German aviation technology was basically useless. It was a bunch of weird concepts, mostly below the Allies tech level. Their jet engines were hopeless, unreliable and underpowered. Their avionic was out of date. Their designing ideas mostly just were plainly wrong or at best gave a dubious performance.

            The only thing that was really useful was German aerodynamic research on high-speed performance of a swept wing. Ironically, Germans themselves failed to understood the importance of it. The Me-262 jet fighter carried a swept wing only because… it’s engines were bulkier than initially anticipated, and the center of gravity was seriously displaced, so they gave wings a slight swept to stabilize it. But the Me-262 wing was no transsonic design.

            So no. The German aviation gave very little to post-war aircraft evolution. American P-59 Airacometh gave more to aircraft design than Me-262.

    1. AvatarBy Steve Moore on

      Think we need a cover-artwork contest on Fan Fiction… but that’s probably against the rules as well.

  23. AvatarBy Justin on

    Have some of the Uul been female all this time and we just never realized it?

      1. AvatarBy Steve Moore on

        CM sure seems to have a case of the hots for for Lawrence. Be interesting to see how she reacts to I’joorka.

        1. AvatarBy Taylor Anderson on

          Yeah. Scared the hell out of poor Larry, too. Think about it though. She’s doubtless hardwired to procreate for genetic improvement, like most species do, and the scent she secretes-like many here speculated—is engineered to start fights so only the biggest, strongest, maybe smartest gets to mate with her (historically probably only after he whups the hell out of competitors). So maybe by her lights Larry is kind of a runt, but he’s also a badass. And she’s certainly a more …. thoughtful CM than her mother was. I can see how what happened to poor Poky might at least temporarily put Larry off of women, though. And remember, he’s still pretty young too.

          1. AvatarBy Steve Moore on

            Other than that, the kind of girl most males dream about…

          2. AvatarBy Justin on

            The new CM definitely gives off Tyr’ahnee/Akivasha vibes, even as a teenager – Lawrence better watch his ass.

          3. AvatarBy Charles Joseph Desrosiers on

            Speaking of Lawrence, whatever happened to his tribe’s mother? Did she repopulate her own island? are the Saaran’s ever going to meet up with the other half of their people? will there be Ill will due to the whole “banishment” thing?

  24. AvatarBy Steve Moore on

    Had a thought about radio. Yes, here in Maine we still listen to the radio. Sometimes it’s en francais but music sounds the same.

    Anyway, First Fleet has to boogie back to Texas, but Reddy’s concerned about Esshk running loose. Well, just reach out and touch Halik via the radio. Esshk has to depend on couriers; but they can reach Halik instataneously. Fill him in on what Esshk’s up to, maybe even get the CM on the line (although Halik’s never talked to her). I’d put my money on Jash, though; he can talk to Halik as general to ‘general’ and fill him in on the situation. And of course Alden and Rolak. Now’s the time to get some more psy-war going; I’ll bet Stokes would jump on it.

    Isn’t it about time for another Silva article of destruction? He looked fondly on the wheeled machine guns, but he didn’t get to invent them. Maybe, just maybe he could find some Grik artilllery rockets, sling a couple under a Fleashooter wing, and presto! A new anti-armor weapon to go after armored Doms. Approaching from a low angle of attack, the pilot could get some broadside hits while the Dom’s anti-air mortars, firing at a near-level angle, would see their shot drop into the water fairly quickly. Wouldn’t work against a LOT pom-pom, I realize, but for now Doms would be the only target.

    Speaking of Dom ships, I guess the Impies never thought about crossing the T and attacking the bow or stern of the Doms. Always seemed to work for Hornblower and Richard Bolitho…

    1. AvatarBy Paul Smith on

      only thing that I see as a problem is the motor exhaust setting the wing on fire by the launch rails. A thin sheet metal band about say 2.5 by 8 ft(wrap around the wing top & bottom) 28 gauge(0.0149in) should weigh about 12.5 pounds per wing, if I figured it correctly. That thickness of steel should handle the airspeed.

          1. AvatarBy Taylor Anderson on

            Four, actually. Two have remained in Balkpaan–unless somebody cracked them up..

          2. AvatarBy Donald j johnson on

            They can afford the extra weight of metal if they need to. I would go more for 16 gauge steel and think that they could actually build an aircraft completely out of steel if they wanted to. 24 gauge maximum and it would be capible of much greater speed than present craft. With puls jet or piston driven compressor jets it could likely match the best of the league.

          3. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

            Donald Johnson, agreed completely. And this is perfectly within the Alliance industrial capabilities.

          4. AvatarBy Steve Moore on

            Just curious, do they have any intact MM’s? )r do we have to wait until June 2020?

    2. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

      “Speaking of Dom ships, I guess the Impies never thought about crossing the T and attacking the bow or stern of the Doms. Always seemed to work for Hornblower and Richard Bolitho…”

      It is not that simple. Especially in steamship combat. Generally it required the speed advantage, or the initiative-less opponent (like at Tsusima Togo was able to cross the T against Russian fleet because Russian squadron was barely able of 9 knots – ships were worn-out after voyage, and we have a lot of transports to cover – and because Rozhestvensky was completely demoralized by the fall of Port-Arthur, thought that the fleet was doomed, and have no better plan that “just sail forward & repel the enemy attacks”)

      1. AvatarBy Steve Moore on

        True, but it still gets accomplished even with modern ships. When the USN turned towards the IJN to avoid torpedoes in more than one encounter, they usually cut off more than half their firepower. But now, with over the horizon weapons, doesn’t make much sense to have a battle line.

    3. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

      Hint: rockets could do underwater hits. One of the reason, why torpedo bombers & dive bombers died out so fast after the war – because it was discovered that rocket, after hitting water, tend to curve the trajectory upward, moving roughly parallel surface & hitting the target below the waterline.

      So the universal solution became just to carry rockets & aim at waterline.

      1. AvatarBy Steve Moore on

        Faster than torpedoes as well; perfect against lightly armored DD’s. Save the torpedoes for the big slow boys.

  25. Taylor AndersonBy Taylor Anderson (Post author) on

    OOK! (As Isak would say) I just got the page proofs for the “Pass of Fire” paperback to go over, and I’ll be spending the next week or so going over a massive pile of paper with a fine-toothed comb. This will be my final chance to fix little things, (no major re-writes, of course), for the ages. As usual though, just as I’m sure I’ll miss stuff–and I’m equally sure many of you have already spotted things, I’d deeply appreciate it if you’d bring them to my attention. Some of you already have, but being so busy wrapping up “Winds of Wrath,” I fear I won’t remember them. Thanks again in advance! You guys are the best.

    1. AvatarBy Justin on

      Ctrl-F for “Atunez.” Can’t remember where that was, but it stuck out for some reason.

      1. AvatarBy Taylor Anderson on

        Really? How weird. Did anyone else see that? I’d like a better idea where to look for it.

          1. AvatarBy Taylor Anderson on

            Thanks! That narrows it down. They sent me a pile of pages, which I generally prefer so I can look at it like any other reader, but I can’t just do a global search.

    1. AvatarBy Doug White on

      I don’t know what show or cartoon that was, but that was pretty neat.

      1. AvatarBy Steve Moore on

        Sort of like the Flintstones when the whistle blows… “OK, guys, knock off for the day. It’s in the contract.”

  26. AvatarBy Joseph R. Thorsky on

    Gentlemen, Ladies Everyone
    Additional avenues for rife unbounded speculation:
    Another more likely Destroyermen insertion and crossover would consist of various Russian naval elements of Czarist Alexander II that were sent to support and bolster President Lincoln and the Union. To influence and prevent any direct European military intervention on the side of the Confederacy, elements of the Russian Baltic and Asiatic Fleets were publicly dispatched and welcomed both in New York on September 15, and in San Francisco on October 15, 1863.
    At this pivotal point of time and History another critically important milestone in naval warfare technology that was equal on the par with the practical development and demonstration of Ericsson’s Monitor and the
    Confederate Submarine CSS H.L. Hunley was the even more revolutionary Union submarine counterpart the USS Alligator, which was first deployed and utilized in the 1862 Peninsular Campaign. Unfortunately, (Another chance Insertion?) the USS Alligator was separated from her tender and lost while under tow and being ferried to Charlestown SC in support of Union amphibious operations being conducted in an attempted retaking of Fort Sumter.
    As was recently suggested and proffered;
    It is both quite conceivable and Science-Fictionally more likely than not that a Laker Aircraft Carrier such as the “Ascension Island” and her “Q-Boat”
    Escort carried as part of their original cargo manifest and inventory a small flotilla of mine laying or torpedo launching min-submarines. Paired with a matching number of modifiable barrage balloons that could be as needed quickly adapted or converted into an aircraft or mini-sub launch vehicle.
    This well could be the storyline and a disruptive scenario that could be both tactically advantageous and strategically important in shifting the military balance of power in a decisive meaningful way.
    Additional Supplemental Sources/References can be found at websites

    1. AvatarBy Robert Lock on

      I think HMS Fidelity deserves a better fate than in her original history . Her or her equivalent would make an interesting addition . Shes basically a commando carrier /crossed with a Q Ship manned by a cast of characters that would have felt at home with a letter of marque in earlier times .

        1. AvatarBy Doug White on

          But if this version of the Fidelity still has its MTB maybe the gang can get a different take on how to make things go. Engines, etc.

          1. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

            Doesn’t matter much, there are limits of what you could do with primitive industrial base and – most importantly – lack of trained engineers and scientists. Sooner or later you would start to hit “do not know how” or “know in general theory, but not as technology”.

          2. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

            That’s why I’m arguing for non-standard solutions, like motorjets & radio-controlled weapons. They could allow you to circumvent lack of knowledge in other areas.

          3. AvatarBy Steve Moore on

            Im all fairness, Alexey, you’ve got a big leg up on the D-men; Taylor is limited by what would have been general technical knowledge in peacetime 1941, the last time anyone would have transferred onto Walker with knowledge gained outside the Asiatic fleet. We’ve got the Uii2 Germans now, as well as some of the Amagi crew, but not a whole lot more of 1930’s technological advances. Mallory and Bernie might be the only ones capable of inspiring a defense industry Renaissance among the D-men, but they’re both itching to get into combat.

            Maybe the solution is to create a university in Japaan to take advantage of some ot the knowledge gained in Zanzibar. Ditto in the RRP.

          4. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

            Well, as I mentioned before – radio control was perfectly well-known by 1941 US Navy. The Asiatic fleet did not participate in pre-war drone training, but they clearly knew about the “Utah” (radio-controlled target ship), and “Project Dog” aerial target drones. And they clearly knew how to make relays, step switches, gyroscopes and radio sets (come on, they even have acoustic radio!).

            Basically, they are even above the WW1 level – and first major efforts in the guided weaponry were commenced in WW1.

          5. AvatarBy Donald j johnson on

            Wasn’t the first radio controlled boat built in about 1898 by tesla

          6. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on


            What I meant, is that Alliance is forced to rely on solutions, based more on inventivness than technology. For example, radio-controlled glider (bomb) is based on inventivness: it does not require specific technology outside the available. 1000+ horsepower aircraft engine – required tecnhology “how to” build one.

          7. AvatarBy Steve Moore on

            Alexey’s right on the technology, but the biggest part of the glide bomb is terminal guidance. The baka pilots, and the Griks, didn’t need as much guidance as they could use the Mark I eyeball all the way in. Doing it from a Clipper would take Lemurian vision and some super depth perception. That way the Clippers could attack from outside pom-pom range. Cripple three or four LOT DD’s, and you’ve put a big dent in any attacking force.. as well as maybe convincing the LOT to leave the CL’s and BB’s out of it for a while. They don’t really need them in the Carribean anyway, and it would be easier to support 20 or so DD’s

            Just thinking, imagine those lost Japanese pilots setting down on a deserted island, out of fuel… and being discovered by a fishing schooner from Japaan. About time for some new blood.

  27. AvatarBy donald j johnson on

    Actually there are a lot of possibility’s from our time.
    French from Montreal area
    English from Hudson Bay area
    Dutch from New York (New Amsterdam)
    The Irish fishermen who were fishing grand banks from around 800
    Portuguese who were world travelers
    As they have been described as warring tribes it could be American Indian tribes of which there were many in the area.
    If they mixed it up by continuous feuding then who knows what the mix is now. If French, English or Portuguese are in the mix then the probability of having gunpowder is high. I still think the basic form is that of the Viking being the earliest semi civilized peoples in the area with knowledge acquired from whoever came later similar to the mix in South Africa. Were it further south it could be the remains of the Carthaginians or similar Mediterranean escapees.
    How many did I miss.

    1. AvatarBy Charles Joseph Desrosiers on

      How about people from alternate timeline where Mexico is Fascist (influenced by Franco style Spanish Fascism) Cannada is Communist, and the USA has a monarchy (the result of George Washington, or that timeline’s equivalent, not resisting the very same temptation that he did resist in our timeline, that is, the temptation to allow his army to crown him king.

  28. AvatarBy Donald j johnson on

    What’s up, did everyone deside to stay away? No posts for 2 days! I get very board reading nothing!

    1. AvatarBy Donald j johnson on

      Nothing since the 14th. Book not out till june I need something to read.

  29. AvatarBy William Henry on

    Haven’t been here in about 6 months but wanted to let everyone know about a book title ( To Slip The Surly Bonds ) that deals with alternative aviation history.
    Mr Anderson has a short story in it that goes into detail about the abandoned PBY that was found by the destroyermen, it’s a neat little fill-in for part of the missing puzzle in the series.

    1. AvatarBy Michael Clitheroe on

      yippee, just ordered it, did the same thing with ‘world that weren’t’ in relation s m sterling’s Peshawar lancer novel. Good novel and linking short story

      1. AvatarBy Michael Clitheroe on

        I really liked the story. Hope the boys from ‘Big Boobs’ make it with their new friends to join the alliance and get some payback and a second chance

        1. AvatarBy Taylor Anderson on

          Thanks Michael! Glad you liked it. I really enjoyed writing it and enjoyed including an unconventional villain.

  30. AvatarBy James Cobban on

    As general background for the series I would recommend a recent book “The Necessary War” by Tim Cook, the official historian of the Canadian War Museum. At the beginning of WWII the USN transferred a number of its four-stacker destroyers to the Royal Canadian Navy as part of the “lend-lease” program, where they were used for convoy duty. Tim Cook combines a historical analysis of the strategy and tactics with excerpts from the writings of individual combatants to put you right in the ward-room of these small warships as they fought two enemies: the German U-boats and the North Atlantic Ocean. Because of its Canadian focus it covers the naval battle in the Java Sea only in passing, but the detailed analysis of the fall of Hong Kong in which the defenders suffered 100% casualties or captured has some direct relevance.

    1. AvatarBy Joseph R. Thorsky on

      J”Ella B” mp3, Amazing Rhythm Aces
      Unconventional Naval warfare on the American Great Lakes has had a long very well storied and what you might rightly say is an oftentimes neglected and represssed counterrevolutionary counterinsurgency background and History. Only through the prism of an unofficially sanctioned and impressed checkered narrative and past revolving around some various crucial accumulated historical events that had developed in-between the two World Wars does there present a target-rich environment and an attractive source and resource for any interested party to creatively Science Fictionally examine and speculate about. What’s especially noteworthy, exciting and self-satisfying is the feeling of “I Knew It!” vindication that one gets when there are new truths exposed that culturally intrude upon and upend and overturn and force both a revisitation of and a reverification of, our default preconceived biases of History.
      A Note of Clarification:
      The Rush-Bagot Agreement between Great Britain and The United States
      was legally binding and in effect on both signatories and not modified replaced or abrogated by either The Neutrality Act of 1939 nor by The Lend-Lease Act of 1941.
      Although the United State had legally declared itself to be a Neutral Power and was expressly obligated to legally adhere to, follow and obey the Geneva Conventions. An American Neutrality in name only foreign policy quietly followed, mirrored, and matched events as they blitzed and steamrollered through the European Continent.
      At that time Naval Construction on the great Lakes was-is inhibited by the size, length and draft of vessels that can navigate a passage through The Sault Ste Marie locks.

      Warfare on the Great Lakes up until the US Civil War was limited by Treaty
      with the largest American warship on the Lakes being The USS Michigan.
      Her actions against timber piracy were instrumental in quelling
      “The timber Insurrection and Rebellion in the 1850’s and 60’s.

      Recent discovery of a WW2 German U-boat The UX-791 has verified reports
      of combat actions and attacks made against the Laker Aircraft Training Carriers as well as other Allied shipping. A Royal Canadian corvette finally hedgehogged the UX-791 where she was severely damaged and
      apparently scuttled or sunk

      Another more likely Destroyermen insertion and crossover would consist of various Russian naval elements of Czarist Alexander II that were sent to support resident Lincoln and the Union and prevent any direct European intervention on the side of the Confederacy. Elements of the Baltic and Asiatic Fleets were welcomed in New York on September 15, and in San Francisco on October 15, 1863.
      I hope this is of assistance in putting the Royal Canadian Navy role and contributions into better perspective.

  31. AvatarBy Joseph R. Thorsky on

    Action stations everyone!
    Complete this Destroyermen storyline as a creative writing challenge, exercise and project.
    Best submissions rating an ‘Atta Boy’ and a ‘Well Done’ will be in line and considered for future advancement and or promotion. There’s no time limit involved but all entries should seamlessly and strictly adhere and conform to Taylor’s narrative.

    Before the births of Sable and Wolverine, there was “Ascension Island”
    In the quasi war beginning, there was an agreed-upon Enigma related secret codicil that was in per se violation and suspension of the US Neutrality Act of 1939 but which was subsequently and discreetly added, attached to and inserted as one of the stand-alone provisions of the Lend-Lease Act of 1941. Legal niceties fail and fall in the face of dire emergency and immediate necessity. These were the operating conditions that were partly in play and essentially in effect leading to the legendary birthing of the ” Ghostly” Laker warship “Ascension Island” and where her fantastic story actually begins.
    “After her expedited military conversion and overhaul was complete “Ascension Island” the first purposely refurbished/redesigned and oldest-newest warship of her class was specifically contracted for rebuilt refitted and launched for urgently needed convoy protection duties and anti-submarine warfare use by the Canadian Royal Navy. It was upon her maiden voyage carrying both amphibious aircraft and ammunition stores under a protected escort from a hastily converted WW-1 American Q-Boat and commerce raider were both vessels reportedly lost damaged or sunk under unexplained mysterious circumstances. The sudden disappearance of these two possibly severely damaged or sunk warships as they were making transit and passage through the Great Lakes and the Saint Lawrence towards the active warzones and combat arenas of the North Atlantic placed severe strains on the already overwhelmed, inadequately resourced and poorly equipped and supplied Atlantic convoy and antisubmarine operations around both Iceland and Greenland.
    The real-time unanticipated events on the Great Lakes and the end resulting unplanned disappearance and
    loss of these two warships was considered a major contributing factor and was considered Katastrophically instrumental in the eventful avoidable tragedy and loss of life that was to shortly follow from the U-boat torpedoing of the USS Rueben James on October 31, 1940.
    Thus shortchanged, shoestringed and hampered by these disastrous unanticipated events on the Great Lakes
    The”Ascension Island” and her American consort’s surprising emergence from out of that horrendous frying pan into Destroyermen cold storage is the real beginnings of their resurrected untold story and not their long ago forgotten requiem and end. Their legendary chapter and accounting as found, relayed and retold in Taylor’s Destroyermen epic narrative begins anew with another déjà vu Squall to be contended with, weathered and overcome.,,,,?
    Supplemental Sources/References can be found at the website
    Air and Space Magazine

    Good Luck on this one everybody!

    I’S Ain’t Superstitious mp3, Howlin’ Wolf
    Blues Jukebox Hits Album
    Hurricane mp3, Meyer Rossaby
    Blues is the Color Album

  32. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

    Considering that “Alliance vs League” navl battke, I’m still under impression that the Alliance best chance is nighttime combat. The reasons:

    * They have Japanese expertise in nighttime combat with heavy use of searchlights & starshells. And IJN was pretty proffecional in that. A pity, of course, they did not have Kurokawa around (as battlecruiser captain, he must be VERY proffesional in that).,.

    * Their main weapon remains the torpedoes. Which are more effective in nighttime.

    * Their only battleship is better designed for relatively close-range combat, rather than long-range duels. Brought close to enemy, the “Savoie” would fare quite well with her extensive armor protecting from HE and small caliber shells of League cruisers & destroyers.

    * Neither French, nor Italians, nor Germans were actually prepared for nighttime combat before WW2. It stand to reason that League followed the same conservative doctrine as her members in our world, pre-rdar time.

    1. AvatarBy Justin on

      Do they though? Shinya’s in South America, Muriname’s a pilot, Niwa’s a marine, the rest went to Not!Japan.

      IIRC all the Union Navy has right now is Fukui and Miyata, and one junior signalman and one navigator won’t be enough to competently train the entire fleet to the IJN’s standard of fighting in the dark. Any kind of Cape Matapan 2.0 depends on the Allies getting their hands on radar… or at least the League not changing their Enigma codes.

      1. AvatarBy Steve Moore on

        Not to mention that the IJN had Long Lance torpedoes, while the Alliance has Midget Mikes.

        1. AvatarBy David DuBois on

          I got the feeling that the torpedoes manufactured after the cross over by the Japanese are a weak copy of the infamous Long Lance torpedo. Certainly the Alliance would benefit from a collaboration with the Japanese torpedo builders, and even the German torpedo men of the submarine, and eventually, they may be able to build an Alliance version of the Long Lance. Torpedo attacks have been proven incredibly effective, in conjunction with dive bombers, such as when the Japanese took out HMS Prince of Wales and Repulse. No reason that the Alliance couldn’t do the same with ships from the League.

          1. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

            I suggested long ago the concept of torpedo, running on chemically-stored oxygen (in form if sodium superoxede crystals). It would be perfectly safe to store, and would have the same oxygen-running abilities as Long Lance: all you need is to heat sodium superoxede up to +100°C, and it would release oxygen.

  33. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

    Speculation: the League would knock NUS out of war by massive bomber raid (from forward-established airfield) on NUS capital. Massed air strikes have devastating effect on unpreapred nations. Recall how Netherlands were knocked out by Rotterdam Blitz?

    Germany needed just a 89 tons of bomb to completely shatter the will of Dutch government and military command. I dare say that ten-fifteen tons of bombs would shatter the will of NUS. They are unprepared. Psychologically unprepared to assume the technical disrepancy.

    1. AvatarBy Lou Schirmer on

      While al that’s Technically possible, it would take time to get forward bases built in the Caribbean Sea Islands, since the NUS is centered on the Gulf coast of the US. Cuba would be their best bet.
      The Italian SM.79’s range with a full load is about 500 miles. From Havana, Cuba to Mobile, Alabama (assuming the NUS are there) is about 630 miles. They might make it with a reduced load, so it’s possible, but they would have no fighter escort. Since it would take place maybe a year or two from now, the allies may have lent them some P-1Cs, maybe as a volunteer group. They would be marginally effective against the SM.79, forcing them to drop their payloads early, not hit selected targets etc. They may even be able to shoot some of them down, or damage them enough, that they wouldn’t be able to return to base.
      I’d say the LOT’s best bet would be your earlier suggestion of bombardment from the sea.

      1. AvatarBy Taylor Anderson on

        it has been established that the NUS equivalent of the Naval Academy is in the vicinity of Mobile so one might assume they have a major naval presence there. :)

      2. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

        This depend. Lightened SM.79 with additional fuel tanks in bomb bay make 800-miles raids to Gibraltar and back. And frnkly, in air combat between SM.79 and any existing Allied fighter I put my money on SM.79. Those hunchbck trimotors were among the most badass planes of World War 2.

        1. AvatarBy Lou Schirmer on

          True, staging out of southern France. To do it, they had to put a 1,000 gallon tank in the bomb bay, remove all the guns except one, add more fuel internally & leave a crewman behind & most of them still ran out of fuel on the return trip. With all the guns except one removed, P-1Cs have a very good chance against them.
          Most of the raids against Gibraltar were with Piaggio P.108’s & SM.82s which had better range, but came into service later. I doubt the LOT would have any of those.

      3. AvatarBy donald johnson on

        At present it would be unlikely for a bomb raid on the NUS without a very large staging effort. As the NUS is in cuba there will not be anything staged there. yes they could do it but if they had there would have been some signs of league aircraft in the battle of the pass in my opinion.

        1. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

          This depend on League startegy… If they knock the NUS out of the war, they would seriously limit Reddy’s reasons to went for a Pass of Fire – now there would be a purely strategical goal, not an ally needed a rescue.

        2. AvatarBy Lou Schirmer on

          They’d have to invade Cuba & take it over & like Don says, it would be a significant effort on their part logistically.
          It would put them in a dominant position in the area though, so it wouldn’t be a bad idea for them to do it.
          With the NUS navy destroyed, the NUS would be effectively out of the war, even if they didn’t sue for peace.

          1. AvatarBy Justin on

            Works in reverse too – the League’d have to put a lot of troops and resources into a Cuba landing, so losing at sea could be as costly for them as Stalingrad or Guadalcanal.

          2. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

            Guys, you are assuming that League would be invading the whole Cuba. But they actually need only a forward base & airfield. They could easily took THAT, and estblish a defense perimeter (razor wire, machineguns, observation posts for mortars, ect.) that the whole NUS army won’t be able to penetrate. This tgey could do with little efforts.

          3. AvatarBy Lou Schirmer on

            Agreed, all they need is a port like Havana. With Savoie needing lots of repair work not to mention some sort of fire control system, the allies & NUS have no chance in a stand up engagement against a theoretical four capital ships with escorts.
            The only thing that could partially even the odds is the U-112 & it’s modern torpedoes. If the LOT thinks it was sunk, they wouldn’t be looking for subs attacking the fleet. Torpedoes coming out of nowhere & taking out one of their BBs would be a rude awakening. If accompanied with a surface attack by the allied DDs & CL behind a smoke screen as a distraction, they make not even be aware of the threat until a couple of heavy ships have taken torpedo hits. In the confusion the allies DDs & CL may be able to press an attack (ala Samar) & get close enough to fire their own torpedoes. It may be enough to make them turn away from an invasion.

          4. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

            I seriously doubt that League would completely neglect the possibility of Alliance having SOME underwater capability. And, i’m afrid you overestimate the submarine capabilities. The matter of cooperation between surface ships and submarines were not fully sucsessfully solved even during the Cold War. To rely on 1940s submarine being able to do exactly what it needed in exctky the right time… is dangerous.

          5. AvatarBy Lou Schirmer on

            Of course it’s dangerous, but they’d be desperate enough to try almost anything by that point.
            As far as coordinated attacks, put the sub with of the DDs & CL until the Nancy’s spot the LOT fleet. Granted the LOT spotter’s will be out looking also. Hopefully the sub will be submerged by then. When the LOT turns to pursue the pathetic allied flotilla, the sub will be waiting. It will attack when it hears gunfire or sees the LOT ships firing through it’s periscope. The LOT will be moving fast enough in chasing the allied ships, that it’s sonar equipment will be ineffective, even if they are looking for subs. If no gunfire, it evades & proceeds to a prearranged rendezvous.
            If it succeeds in hitting one or more heavy LOT ships, the allies may be able to press an attack in the confusion, coming in behind smoke.

          6. AvatarBy Justin on

            Personally, I also see opportunity in letting them land. Establishing a beachhead with an airstrip should be easy… but keeping it supplied?

            Nah, the League’s new Henderson Field is still going to need a significant chunk of their skilled personnel and airpower, and a supply line from the other side of the Atlantic. The latter offers a big, fat target for the Allies, the loss of which would leave the former effectively marooned.

          7. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

            This depend on how long they are supposed to use it. For a short-range campaign – scare the NUS out of the war and secure the Pass of Fire – the limited suplies would be enough.

            P.S. Lets not forget, that Alliance logistic is even worse. They need to haul everything across the Pacific.

          8. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

            “As far as coordinated attacks, put the sub with of the DDs & CL until the Nancy’s spot the LOT fleet. ”

            Problem is, that sub could not keep with DD very well. Even big cruiser one. This basically means, that Allince should sacrifice their deployment speed. The League could use the time to organise a pincer movement, with “wings” of destroyers/fast cruisers outfanking the Alliance fleet.

            “Then the LOT turns to pursue the pathetic allied flotilla, the sub will be waiting.”

            It would work only if LOT would engage in direct stern chase. And they probably wouldn’t. They would be cautious of Allied torpedoes. Let’s not forget, that the “running distance” and “effective range” of the torpedo is two different things. If you are firing against the enemy that chased you, your effective torpedo range is basically doubled (because the enemy is moving toward your torpedoes).

            So the League ships probably would not move in predictable pattern.

          9. AvatarBy Steve Moore on

            Make a interim base in Venezuela, very shallow oil fields and light oil, plus already controlled by the Doms. From there, Cuba is much more threatened.

            Not to mention the mysterious East Coast entities that don’t like the NUS very much. Assuming that their technology is even with the NUS, it’d be pretty easy for the LOT to set up an American base at say, Jacksonville or Savannah.

            But best thing Reddy can do now it get some Nancys and P-1D’s to Cuba. Plus all of the Japanese torpedo planes, and start building copies in the RRP. They supposedly have better engines, and the RRP is going to need land-based torpedo planes to defend the Cape. Send plans for the MTB’s to the NUS, and get a supply of engines and fuel on the way from the RRP.

            Supply from the RRP being key to the Alliance’s success; it would not surprise me if the LOT does not wait for the battleships and cruisers, but sends the destroyer flotillas with oilers to disrupt supply lines and destroy the remainder of the Alliance Navy Clan. They don’t need battleships.

          10. AvatarBy Steve Moore on

            Isn’t the U-112 in crappy shape, with the crew dispersed and unwilling to be pig-boat men again? Torps a different size, unless they re-line the tubes?

            Other idea is once they meet up with Halik, convince him to join the side of the CM, and bo back to Arabia to put a little pressure on the LOT’s eastern frontier. Maybe a squadron of Cantets to serve as ‘Night Witches’ and fire-bomb at night.

            Not to mention the Ju-52 flying in a reverse Kg 200 role, adding to night terror raids.

          11. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

            “Not to mention the mysterious East Coast entities that don’t like the NUS very much.”

            Yeah, and let’s not forget: they may be also the reason why Dom’s decided to abandon the whole Mexican Valley after war with NUS.

            “Other idea is once they meet up with Halik, convince him to join the side of the CM, and bo back to Arabia to put a little pressure on the LOT’s eastern frontier. Maybe a squadron of Cantets to serve as ‘Night Witches’ and fire-bomb at night.”

            One problem. Why should Halik faction or CM faction fight the League? League done nothing wrong to them, and I suspect that CM would be highly critical of the idea “you should fight them because they are bad guys”. Halik also have no reason to fight the League.

            Let’s not put the Grik Empire into the “good guys” list too fast. First of all, they have serious internal split, which would probably consume most of their resources on in-fighting. Secondly, they have little reason to love the Alliance, and even less reasons to dislike the League.

            The most probable outcome, frankly, would be for Grik Empire to stay out of League-Alliance war, but providing Alliance with raw materials and pre-fabricated components as a part of “peace threaty”. Considering Grik enormous production capabilities, they could easily fulfill Alliance need of steel, powder, chemical materials.

          12. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

            “Not to mention the Ju-52 flying in a reverse Kg 200 role, adding to night terror raids.”

            Night raids against what? How would they navigate at night over unknown land?

          13. AvatarBy Lou Schirmer on

            “Problem is, that sub could not keep with DD very well.”
            Actually, it should have no problems keeping up. Reddy knows the LOT has essentially expended two subs already, so they probably have more, one or two of which may accompany the LOT fleet. Reddy’s flotilla would probably be going slow enough for their sonar to be effective (16-18 knots) & zig-zagging. One the other claw, as Steve says, the U-112 is in poor shape & the crew may not want to fight the LOT. On the third tentacle, some of them may agree to it since they’d be fighting mostly the French & Italians & they can fill out the crew with what’s left of the S-19 folks, & cat volunteers. They should have a full load of German torpedoes, they could off load a couple for study & use the rest.
            “It would work only if LOT would engage in direct stern chase. And they probably wouldn’t.”
            They might, you never know, especially if they think the allies might escape if they don’t pursue directly. Plus anti-torpedo tactics call for turning either into or away from the torpedo spread to parallel it. If they are in direct pursuit, they should be already almost parallel to any incoming tracks.

          14. AvatarBy Justin on

            Pretty sure Alexey means the actual fight. Even flank speed is 8 knots underwater for a pre-XXI U-Boat, so she’d already have to be in the combat zone ahead of the Allied fleet in order to be useful.

            I mean, there’s got to be a reason why the USN had their subs doing search and destroy, rather than operating as fleet scouts.

          15. AvatarBy Lou Schirmer on

            Right, but most of the time they operated on the surface. She’d accompany Reddy’s flotilla & submerge when smoke is sighted on the horizon, then wait for an opportunity.
            As far as operating with the fleet, the US subs were, on occasion, deployed in picket lines ahead of the IJN line of advance. Sometimes just reporting on their movements, but other times, taking a shot. Also to consider is the USN had 3-4 time more subs available than Reddy has modern surface ships. They could afford to spread them out.
            Hopefully, by the time they get there, some of the new aircraft came with them to help out.

          16. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

            Problem is, that for this to work, the submarine needed to be positioned exactly right. I.e. Reddy would need to predict his LOT opponent course of action perfectly. And, with all respect, but it is impossible. Too many variables.

            The underwater trap is SUPPOSEDLY workable tactics, but not with a single submarine. The slightest deviation of pursuing LOT navy from the course would be enough for sub to not be able to attack at all. Or even to detect the enemy. Periscope is not exactly the best surface search tool around.

            It may work in the situation when the opponent is restrained in movement (like in a narrow), but problem is, that opponent, traversing the narrow, would expect underwater attacks.

          17. AvatarBy donald johnson on

            “Not to mention the mysterious East Coast entities that don’t like the NUS very much.”

            My guess is that the unknown enemy is the Vikings.
            #1 they were known to have been in the area after 1000 ad “Eric the red” era.
            #2 They were very aggressive against all they met at the time.
            As they would be very capable of building small fast ships they can be a very capable enemy and as slave holders they would want to get more from wherever they could catch them. This would generally piss off all who meet them including the NUS.
            Their tech level is surprisingly high and they had good steel though it was only swords at the tome of crossover.
            Although they did not have guns at the time of crossover they would undoubtedly have them now by capturing a few ships with them by night attacks of which they were well known for.
            This is my reasoning for the unknown enemy.
            Oh yes they would be followers of Odin as the ones who were out looking at time of the crossover were generally trying to stay out of the hands of the catholic/christian newcomers that were taking over their homelands.

          18. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

            “Although they did not have guns at the time of crossover they would undoubtedly have them now by capturing a few ships with them by night attacks of which they were well known for.”

            I’m afraid, you overestimate Viking’s lore greatly… Let’s not forget: vikings were not a nation, they were a profession. Scandinavia in 8th-11th centuries have a lot of population, but very limited lands for farming (and the available land wasn’t exactly rich also), so quite a lot of young males seek fortune and glory elsewhere.

            In the conditions of Destroyermen’s World, where the land is perfectly available… why should our vikings bother to sail & raid someone? Especially considering that human populations are rather small & dispersed, and there are an awful lot of dangers on the way. What’s the point of sending longships to raid some primitive poor tribes? And entities like Dominion is clearly too big for even vikings to mess with.

            “Although they did not have guns at the time of crossover they would undoubtedly have them now by capturing a few ships with them by night attacks of which they were well known for.”

            With all respect, but vikings trying to capture a Dominion ship would not be even a bad joke. The Dominion naval technology – even just sailing one – is centuries ahead of any available to vikings. Trying to board the pinnace from viking longboat… well, let’s say that the best chances vikings would have if Dom’s sailors would laugh themselves to death…

          19. AvatarBy Justin on

            ROB describes them as a bunch of “diverse, insular and often belligerent tribes;” that sounds a lot like Norsemen, albeit probably not as advanced as Donald suggests. Definitely nowhere close to raiding the Dominion even with Roanoke gunpowder.

            While the reasons to go Viking are unclear, one theory suggests the need to steal brides… and Vinland wouldn’t have many (the DD-verse even less). It’s not hard to imagine a bunch of hybrid Norse-First Nations clans all feuding with each other.

          20. AvatarBy donald j johnson on

            The viking were actually more of a single force than most realize. in around 800 to 900 they had a single leader for many of the local tribes up in the Jutland area. Iceland was a single nation and Greenland had been settled. They had discovered how to determine the suns location using a form of calcite. Their swords were of extremely high quality steel.
            As far as capturing ships you must realize that just because a ship has guns and the enemy does not is not cause to justify that the ones with guns won’t loose especially if over 100 years of trial the viking would not learn that
            1) night attacks make it easier to sneak onto an anchored ship from small boats.
            2) keep trying until you succeed.
            my guess is that they lost their first ship in their first 10 years of exploring the area. they pissed off the vikings with their attitude somehow (easy to understand) and failed to realize that they need to keep a ready watch for the enemy.
            Yes they were fighting each other but not to the death but more of an capture the flag attitude. and after peace is obtained the youngsters would go brawl somewhere else for a while. and maybe buy wives instead of steeling them. This is also the way the american Indians did it

          21. AvatarBy Justin on

            Norse kings had pretty short shelf lives, which is partly how the Anglo-Saxons and Franks managed to contain them; even the Great Heathen Army fell to pieces in the end. There might’ve been a time where the whole East Coast was united under one ruler, but that’s clearly not the case now.

          22. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

            “As far as capturing ships you must realize that just because a ship has guns and the enemy does not is not cause to justify that the ones with guns won’t loose especially if over 100 years of trial the viking would not learn that”

            Dom’s did not just have guns. They have EVERYTHING. Better sail plane, higher freeboard, better anti-boarding tactics. They are descendants of the much more advanced seafaring culture that Vikings even dreamed to be. And to be exact: Spaniards of post-reconquista era were absolutely badass in boarding actions.

            And 100 years of trials is not exactly that much, considering the cost of each failure and not exactly clear benefits of the victory. Again: no population pressure, plenty of farming land. The transferred northerners simply have no reason to go viking – it does not pays off, the most available targets (the Dom’s) are much more likely to kill and rob them than visa-versa, and considering the very aggressive fauna around, the rulers of settlements would not took it kindly if some youths would declare “I’m sick of farming, let’s go robe Dom’s – surely, after a hundred years of being totally massacred by them we MUST win this time!”

          23. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

            “1) night attacks make it easier to sneak onto an anchored ship from small boats.
            2) keep trying until you succeed.”


            1) And why do you think Dom’s never heard about small boat attacks against anchored ships? This was a basic tactics of many pirates since Viking times, and Dom’s are of much later culture.

            More than that, considering the average conditions of Destroyermen’s world, it’s utterly impossible to imagine Dom’s tradeship being on anchor near unknown landmass without all possible lookouts ready & guards on the watch.

            2) Keeping trying required quite a lot of spare population. And quite stupid one, to continue to annoy Dom’s without any need to do that.

            “my guess is that they lost their first ship in their first 10 years of exploring the area. they pissed off the vikings with their attitude somehow (easy to understand) and failed to realize that they need to keep a ready watch for the enemy.”

            Justin, Dom’s are much MORE advanced civilization than Vikings! It was THEM who may be pissed off by Vikings, not the visa-versa. Considering that Dom’s are basically better in everything, from seafaring to swordsmanship (yeah, this things improved too), basically any clash between them would be a total disaster for Vikings. And if they manage to annoy the Dom’s, Dom’s would just send a relatively small punitive expedition to exterminate them.

          24. AvatarBy Justin on

            Yo Alexey, Don’s the one talking about raiding Dommie ships. High tension or not, don’t go putting text in my box!

        3. AvatarBy Steve Moore on

          Sounds like other civilizations are nothing but untermensch to the LOT, so Halik may have no choice, And if he’s in Arabia, he’s sitting on oil that the LOT would probably covet.

          What was the navigation system the Luftwaffe used for night bombing? Huckbein or something like that? THink it worked something like LORAN.

          1. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

            No, it wasn’t anything like LORAN. LORAN us time-delay system: plane send a signal, transponders on the ground recieve and re-send it, and the time between signal sending & return (diveded by two, minus the know transponder reaction time) gave the distance from the transponder. Several transponder station create a series of distance redings, which then could be used to approximate plane position.

            German system used Lorentz beams, i.e. narrow-focused radio beams. Two such beams were used in pair, each encoded with signl sequence: the right one beam send short signals with long pauses, and the left one – long signals with short pauses. Since the beams were send very close to each other, there exist a very narrow zone where BOTH signals overlapped, producing one continious signal.

            The plane navigator used his radio gear to listen to the beam. As long as he heard a continious, uninterrupted sound, it means that the plane is on exactly the right path moving along the overlapping area between the beams. But if plane strayed, say, to the left, the navigator would now hear only the left beam – long signals with short pauses. He would immediately realize that the plane went out of the path, and order pilot to turn right.

            To determine exact location, two intersecting pair of beams were used. One determined the plane approach. The other was to pinpoint the bombing location: the intersection determined the point to drop bombs.

            The system was fairly accurate, but A – it was line-of-sight only (could not be used beyond a few hundred km), and B – the straight line approach made the plane course very predictable. And C – Germans, being rather inept in electronics, never figured out how to make system jamming-proof, so after a while British neutralized it by just generating a false intersection beams.

    2. AvatarBy Steve Moore on

      Don’t think they’d need the bombers. Look what one destroyer did to the NUS bleet. Imagine sending a squadron into Mobile Bay, a la Narvik or Balikpapan.

      1. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

        Agreed, but bombers are… more psychologically-damaging for pre-flight civilization. The naval attacks still allow the other side to think “if we would be far enough from sea, we have a chance”. The aerial attacks could hit anywhere.

        Recall the British shock from the first zeppelin raids in 1915. They weren’t exactly very destructive; but psychological damage was enormous. All British suddenly realized, that anyone could be killed. That there is no “safe from war” places; aerial attack could reach anywhere.

        And League have much better bombing capabilities than German zeppelins of WW1 – and much less moral restrains…

        1. AvatarBy Matt White on

          I agree bombers would be extremely effective. The question then is how would they pull it off. Given intel received from defectors the League isn’t capable of such a logistical undertaking at the moment.

          No bombers that they could conceivably have possess the range to cross the Atlantic. That means they have to be broken down and shipped. That will slow things down. Fuel and munitions also have to be shipped and resupply would be slow. Then again, if you’re right they only need one or two bombing raids to achieve their goal. There is also the risk that must be considered. The league has lost one modern destroyer from brilliant Union tactics already. They can’t know for sure that there aren’t more ships in the Atlantic already and while their modern warships would crush them, we have good reason to believe they aren’t in a good position to deploy escorts at this time.

          French, Italian and German warships in our world also didn’t have the range of their British and American counterparts either. I think it’s reasonable to assume the same is true here. So that means the escort also needs an axillary to supply it. So one ship for the planes, another for ordinance, an escort and an oiler for the escort. This is starting to become a decent sized operation. To ensure safety and the only warship isn’t defeated by underhanded tactics it would be prudent to bring a second…and an oiler for it as well of course.

          Not impossible but something that would take time to arrange. There’s also the risk in using the bombers. Even without air defence of any kind some can be lost. Mechanical casualties, accidents, bad weather etc. Would League leadership be willing to commit the bombers on their own far from supply and spare parts?

          I’m not sure. They have been both cautious and willing to make expensive risks. They flip flop back and forth. Savoie and the uboat were both logistical liabilities. We don’t know about not-surcouf and the Macchi-messers were definitely important and an expensive loss.

          It could go either way. But I think if they do try it, it will take time and wouldn’t happen in the next book.

        2. AvatarBy Justin on

          It seems to be a moot point, since it looks like the League’s just going to skip the NUS altogether and attack the Pass directly.

  34. AvatarBy Jeff on

    Minor question. Been cruising through the previous books again and am in Storm Surge now. A couple of times Matt referenced a conversation he had with his cousin, and Orrin has done the same thing.

    Thought that was a dream Matt had while recovering from the fight with Hoo-yoo-dammy. He made it from a sick bed in Manila to New Ireland where his cousin told him about Doolittle’s raid.

    Just wondering if I missed something, or maybe they spoke via radio, or maybe just another Mandela Effect blip ……

    1. AvatarBy Charles Joseph Desrosiers on

      I think it was a flash back. The conversation probably took place when USS Walker stoped at the New Brittish Isles on the way back home from the fighting in California.


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