March 17

General Discussions

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Pass of Fire




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Posted March 17, 2016 by Taylor Anderson in category "Uncategorized


  1. AvatarBy Joseph R. Thorsky on

    Gentlemen, Ladies Everyone
    Additional avenues for rife unbounded speculation:
    Another more likely Destroyermen insertion and crossover would consist of various Russian naval elements of Czarist Alexander II that were sent to support and bolster President Lincoln and the Union. To influence and prevent any direct European military intervention on the side of the Confederacy, elements of the Russian Baltic and Asiatic Fleets were publicly dispatched and welcomed both in New York on September 15, and in San Francisco on October 15, 1863.
    At this pivotal point of time and History another critically important milestone in naval warfare technology that was equal on the par with the practical development and demonstration of Ericsson’s Monitor and the
    Confederate Submarine CSS H.L. Hunley was the even more revolutionary Union submarine counterpart the USS Alligator, which was first deployed and utilized in the 1862 Peninsular Campaign. Unfortunately, (Another chance Insertion?) the USS Alligator was separated from her tender and lost while under tow and being ferried to Charlestown SC in support of Union amphibious operations being conducted in an attempted retaking of Fort Sumter.
    As was recently suggested and proffered;
    It is both quite conceivable and Science-Fictionally more likely than not that a Laker Aircraft Carrier such as the “Ascension Island” and her “Q-Boat”
    Escort carried as part of their original cargo manifest and inventory a small flotilla of mine laying or torpedo launching min-submarines. Paired with a matching number of modifiable barrage balloons that could be as needed quickly adapted or converted into an aircraft or mini-sub launch vehicle.
    This well could be the storyline and a disruptive scenario that could be both tactically advantageous and strategically important in shifting the military balance of power in a decisive meaningful way.
    Additional Supplemental Sources/References can be found at websites

  2. AvatarBy donald j johnson on

    Actually there are a lot of possibility’s from our time.
    French from Montreal area
    English from Hudson Bay area
    Dutch from New York (New Amsterdam)
    The Irish fishermen who were fishing grand banks from around 800
    Portuguese who were world travelers
    As they have been described as warring tribes it could be American Indian tribes of which there were many in the area.
    If they mixed it up by continuous feuding then who knows what the mix is now. If French, English or Portuguese are in the mix then the probability of having gunpowder is high. I still think the basic form is that of the Viking being the earliest semi civilized peoples in the area with knowledge acquired from whoever came later similar to the mix in South Africa. Were it further south it could be the remains of the Carthaginians or similar Mediterranean escapees.
    How many did I miss.

  3. AvatarBy Donald j johnson on

    What’s up, did everyone deside to stay away? No posts for 2 days! I get very board reading nothing!

    1. AvatarBy Donald j johnson on

      Nothing since the 14th. Book not out till june I need something to read.

  4. AvatarBy William Henry on

    Haven’t been here in about 6 months but wanted to let everyone know about a book title ( To Slip The Surly Bonds ) that deals with alternative aviation history.
    Mr Anderson has a short story in it that goes into detail about the abandoned PBY that was found by the destroyermen, it’s a neat little fill-in for part of the missing puzzle in the series.

    1. AvatarBy Michael Clitheroe on

      yippee, just ordered it, did the same thing with ‘world that weren’t’ in relation s m sterling’s Peshawar lancer novel. Good novel and linking short story

  5. AvatarBy James Cobban on

    As general background for the series I would recommend a recent book “The Necessary War” by Tim Cook, the official historian of the Canadian War Museum. At the beginning of WWII the USN transferred a number of its four-stacker destroyers to the Royal Canadian Navy as part of the “lend-lease” program, where they were used for convoy duty. Tim Cook combines a historical analysis of the strategy and tactics with excerpts from the writings of individual combatants to put you right in the ward-room of these small warships as they fought two enemies: the German U-boats and the North Atlantic Ocean. Because of its Canadian focus it covers the naval battle in the Java Sea only in passing, but the detailed analysis of the fall of Hong Kong in which the defenders suffered 100% casualties or captured has some direct relevance.

    1. AvatarBy Joseph R. Thorsky on

      J”Ella B” mp3, Amazing Rhythm Aces
      Unconventional Naval warfare on the American Great Lakes has had a long very well storied and what you might rightly say is an oftentimes neglected and represssed counterrevolutionary counterinsurgency background and History. Only through the prism of an unofficially sanctioned and impressed checkered narrative and past revolving around some various crucial accumulated historical events that had developed in-between the two World Wars does there present a target-rich environment and an attractive source and resource for any interested party to creatively Science Fictionally examine and speculate about. What’s especially noteworthy, exciting and self-satisfying is the feeling of “I Knew It!” vindication that one gets when there are new truths exposed that culturally intrude upon and upend and overturn and force both a revisitation of and a reverification of, our default preconceived biases of History.
      A Note of Clarification:
      The Rush-Bagot Agreement between Great Britain and The United States
      was legally binding and in effect on both signatories and not modified replaced or abrogated by either The Neutrality Act of 1939 nor by The Lend-Lease Act of 1941.
      Although the United State had legally declared itself to be a Neutral Power and was expressly obligated to legally adhere to, follow and obey the Geneva Conventions. An American Neutrality in name only foreign policy quietly followed, mirrored, and matched events as they blitzed and steamrollered through the European Continent.
      At that time Naval Construction on the great Lakes was-is inhibited by the size, length and draft of vessels that can navigate a passage through The Sault Ste Marie locks.

      Warfare on the Great Lakes up until the US Civil War was limited by Treaty
      with the largest American warship on the Lakes being The USS Michigan.
      Her actions against timber piracy were instrumental in quelling
      “The timber Insurrection and Rebellion in the 1850’s and 60’s.

      Recent discovery of a WW2 German U-boat The UX-791 has verified reports
      of combat actions and attacks made against the Laker Aircraft Training Carriers as well as other Allied shipping. A Royal Canadian corvette finally hedgehogged the UX-791 where she was severely damaged and
      apparently scuttled or sunk

      Another more likely Destroyermen insertion and crossover would consist of various Russian naval elements of Czarist Alexander II that were sent to support resident Lincoln and the Union and prevent any direct European intervention on the side of the Confederacy. Elements of the Baltic and Asiatic Fleets were welcomed in New York on September 15, and in San Francisco on October 15, 1863.
      I hope this is of assistance in putting the Royal Canadian Navy role and contributions into better perspective.

  6. AvatarBy Joseph R. Thorsky on

    Action stations everyone!
    Complete this Destroyermen storyline as a creative writing challenge, exercise and project.
    Best submissions rating an ‘Atta Boy’ and a ‘Well Done’ will be in line and considered for future advancement and or promotion. There’s no time limit involved but all entries should seamlessly and strictly adhere and conform to Taylor’s narrative.

    Before the births of Sable and Wolverine, there was “Ascension Island”
    In the quasi war beginning, there was an agreed-upon Enigma related secret codicil that was in per se violation and suspension of the US Neutrality Act of 1939 but which was subsequently and discreetly added, attached to and inserted as one of the stand-alone provisions of the Lend-Lease Act of 1941. Legal niceties fail and fall in the face of dire emergency and immediate necessity. These were the operating conditions that were partly in play and essentially in effect leading to the legendary birthing of the ” Ghostly” Laker warship “Ascension Island” and where her fantastic story actually begins.
    “After her expedited military conversion and overhaul was complete “Ascension Island” the first purposely refurbished/redesigned and oldest-newest warship of her class was specifically contracted for rebuilt refitted and launched for urgently needed convoy protection duties and anti-submarine warfare use by the Canadian Royal Navy. It was upon her maiden voyage carrying both amphibious aircraft and ammunition stores under a protected escort from a hastily converted WW-1 American Q-Boat and commerce raider were both vessels reportedly lost damaged or sunk under unexplained mysterious circumstances. The sudden disappearance of these two possibly severely damaged or sunk warships as they were making transit and passage through the Great Lakes and the Saint Lawrence towards the active warzones and combat arenas of the North Atlantic placed severe strains on the already overwhelmed, inadequately resourced and poorly equipped and supplied Atlantic convoy and antisubmarine operations around both Iceland and Greenland.
    The real-time unanticipated events on the Great Lakes and the end resulting unplanned disappearance and
    loss of these two warships was considered a major contributing factor and was considered Katastrophically instrumental in the eventful avoidable tragedy and loss of life that was to shortly follow from the U-boat torpedoing of the USS Rueben James on October 31, 1940.
    Thus shortchanged, shoestringed and hampered by these disastrous unanticipated events on the Great Lakes
    The”Ascension Island” and her American consort’s surprising emergence from out of that horrendous frying pan into Destroyermen cold storage is the real beginnings of their resurrected untold story and not their long ago forgotten requiem and end. Their legendary chapter and accounting as found, relayed and retold in Taylor’s Destroyermen epic narrative begins anew with another déjà vu Squall to be contended with, weathered and overcome.,,,,?
    Supplemental Sources/References can be found at the website
    Air and Space Magazine

    Good Luck on this one everybody!

    I’S Ain’t Superstitious mp3, Howlin’ Wolf
    Blues Jukebox Hits Album
    Hurricane mp3, Meyer Rossaby
    Blues is the Color Album

  7. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

    Considering that “Alliance vs League” navl battke, I’m still under impression that the Alliance best chance is nighttime combat. The reasons:

    * They have Japanese expertise in nighttime combat with heavy use of searchlights & starshells. And IJN was pretty proffecional in that. A pity, of course, they did not have Kurokawa around (as battlecruiser captain, he must be VERY proffesional in that).,.

    * Their main weapon remains the torpedoes. Which are more effective in nighttime.

    * Their only battleship is better designed for relatively close-range combat, rather than long-range duels. Brought close to enemy, the “Savoie” would fare quite well with her extensive armor protecting from HE and small caliber shells of League cruisers & destroyers.

    * Neither French, nor Italians, nor Germans were actually prepared for nighttime combat before WW2. It stand to reason that League followed the same conservative doctrine as her members in our world, pre-rdar time.

    1. AvatarBy Justin on

      Do they though? Shinya’s in South America, Muriname’s a pilot, Niwa’s a marine, the rest went to Not!Japan.

      IIRC all the Union Navy has right now is Fukui and Miyata, and one junior signalman and one navigator won’t be enough to competently train the entire fleet to the IJN’s standard of fighting in the dark. Any kind of Cape Matapan 2.0 depends on the Allies getting their hands on radar… or at least the League not changing their Enigma codes.

      1. AvatarBy Steve Moore on

        Not to mention that the IJN had Long Lance torpedoes, while the Alliance has Midget Mikes.

        1. AvatarBy David DuBois on

          I got the feeling that the torpedoes manufactured after the cross over by the Japanese are a weak copy of the infamous Long Lance torpedo. Certainly the Alliance would benefit from a collaboration with the Japanese torpedo builders, and even the German torpedo men of the submarine, and eventually, they may be able to build an Alliance version of the Long Lance. Torpedo attacks have been proven incredibly effective, in conjunction with dive bombers, such as when the Japanese took out HMS Prince of Wales and Repulse. No reason that the Alliance couldn’t do the same with ships from the League.

          1. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

            I suggested long ago the concept of torpedo, running on chemically-stored oxygen (in form if sodium superoxede crystals). It would be perfectly safe to store, and would have the same oxygen-running abilities as Long Lance: all you need is to heat sodium superoxede up to +100°C, and it would release oxygen.

  8. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

    Speculation: the League would knock NUS out of war by massive bomber raid (from forward-established airfield) on NUS capital. Massed air strikes have devastating effect on unpreapred nations. Recall how Netherlands were knocked out by Rotterdam Blitz?

    Germany needed just a 89 tons of bomb to completely shatter the will of Dutch government and military command. I dare say that ten-fifteen tons of bombs would shatter the will of NUS. They are unprepared. Psychologically unprepared to assume the technical disrepancy.

    1. AvatarBy Lou Schirmer on

      While al that’s Technically possible, it would take time to get forward bases built in the Caribbean Sea Islands, since the NUS is centered on the Gulf coast of the US. Cuba would be their best bet.
      The Italian SM.79’s range with a full load is about 500 miles. From Havana, Cuba to Mobile, Alabama (assuming the NUS are there) is about 630 miles. They might make it with a reduced load, so it’s possible, but they would have no fighter escort. Since it would take place maybe a year or two from now, the allies may have lent them some P-1Cs, maybe as a volunteer group. They would be marginally effective against the SM.79, forcing them to drop their payloads early, not hit selected targets etc. They may even be able to shoot some of them down, or damage them enough, that they wouldn’t be able to return to base.
      I’d say the LOT’s best bet would be your earlier suggestion of bombardment from the sea.

      1. AvatarBy Taylor Anderson on

        it has been established that the NUS equivalent of the Naval Academy is in the vicinity of Mobile so one might assume they have a major naval presence there. :)

      2. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

        This depend. Lightened SM.79 with additional fuel tanks in bomb bay make 800-miles raids to Gibraltar and back. And frnkly, in air combat between SM.79 and any existing Allied fighter I put my money on SM.79. Those hunchbck trimotors were among the most badass planes of World War 2.

        1. AvatarBy Lou Schirmer on

          True, staging out of southern France. To do it, they had to put a 1,000 gallon tank in the bomb bay, remove all the guns except one, add more fuel internally & leave a crewman behind & most of them still ran out of fuel on the return trip. With all the guns except one removed, P-1Cs have a very good chance against them.
          Most of the raids against Gibraltar were with Piaggio P.108’s & SM.82s which had better range, but came into service later. I doubt the LOT would have any of those.

      3. AvatarBy donald johnson on

        At present it would be unlikely for a bomb raid on the NUS without a very large staging effort. As the NUS is in cuba there will not be anything staged there. yes they could do it but if they had there would have been some signs of league aircraft in the battle of the pass in my opinion.

        1. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

          This depend on League startegy… If they knock the NUS out of the war, they would seriously limit Reddy’s reasons to went for a Pass of Fire – now there would be a purely strategical goal, not an ally needed a rescue.

        2. AvatarBy Lou Schirmer on

          They’d have to invade Cuba & take it over & like Don says, it would be a significant effort on their part logistically.
          It would put them in a dominant position in the area though, so it wouldn’t be a bad idea for them to do it.
          With the NUS navy destroyed, the NUS would be effectively out of the war, even if they didn’t sue for peace.

          1. AvatarBy Justin on

            Works in reverse too – the League’d have to put a lot of troops and resources into a Cuba landing, so losing at sea could be as costly for them as Stalingrad or Guadalcanal.

          2. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

            Guys, you are assuming that League would be invading the whole Cuba. But they actually need only a forward base & airfield. They could easily took THAT, and estblish a defense perimeter (razor wire, machineguns, observation posts for mortars, ect.) that the whole NUS army won’t be able to penetrate. This tgey could do with little efforts.

          3. AvatarBy Lou Schirmer on

            Agreed, all they need is a port like Havana. With Savoie needing lots of repair work not to mention some sort of fire control system, the allies & NUS have no chance in a stand up engagement against a theoretical four capital ships with escorts.
            The only thing that could partially even the odds is the U-112 & it’s modern torpedoes. If the LOT thinks it was sunk, they wouldn’t be looking for subs attacking the fleet. Torpedoes coming out of nowhere & taking out one of their BBs would be a rude awakening. If accompanied with a surface attack by the allied DDs & CL behind a smoke screen as a distraction, they make not even be aware of the threat until a couple of heavy ships have taken torpedo hits. In the confusion the allies DDs & CL may be able to press an attack (ala Samar) & get close enough to fire their own torpedoes. It may be enough to make them turn away from an invasion.

          4. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

            I seriously doubt that League would completely neglect the possibility of Alliance having SOME underwater capability. And, i’m afrid you overestimate the submarine capabilities. The matter of cooperation between surface ships and submarines were not fully sucsessfully solved even during the Cold War. To rely on 1940s submarine being able to do exactly what it needed in exctky the right time… is dangerous.

          5. AvatarBy Lou Schirmer on

            Of course it’s dangerous, but they’d be desperate enough to try almost anything by that point.
            As far as coordinated attacks, put the sub with of the DDs & CL until the Nancy’s spot the LOT fleet. Granted the LOT spotter’s will be out looking also. Hopefully the sub will be submerged by then. When the LOT turns to pursue the pathetic allied flotilla, the sub will be waiting. It will attack when it hears gunfire or sees the LOT ships firing through it’s periscope. The LOT will be moving fast enough in chasing the allied ships, that it’s sonar equipment will be ineffective, even if they are looking for subs. If no gunfire, it evades & proceeds to a prearranged rendezvous.
            If it succeeds in hitting one or more heavy LOT ships, the allies may be able to press an attack in the confusion, coming in behind smoke.

          6. AvatarBy Justin on

            Personally, I also see opportunity in letting them land. Establishing a beachhead with an airstrip should be easy… but keeping it supplied?

            Nah, the League’s new Henderson Field is still going to need a significant chunk of their skilled personnel and airpower, and a supply line from the other side of the Atlantic. The latter offers a big, fat target for the Allies, the loss of which would leave the former effectively marooned.

          7. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

            This depend on how long they are supposed to use it. For a short-range campaign – scare the NUS out of the war and secure the Pass of Fire – the limited suplies would be enough.

            P.S. Lets not forget, that Alliance logistic is even worse. They need to haul everything across the Pacific.

          8. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

            “As far as coordinated attacks, put the sub with of the DDs & CL until the Nancy’s spot the LOT fleet. ”

            Problem is, that sub could not keep with DD very well. Even big cruiser one. This basically means, that Allince should sacrifice their deployment speed. The League could use the time to organise a pincer movement, with “wings” of destroyers/fast cruisers outfanking the Alliance fleet.

            “Then the LOT turns to pursue the pathetic allied flotilla, the sub will be waiting.”

            It would work only if LOT would engage in direct stern chase. And they probably wouldn’t. They would be cautious of Allied torpedoes. Let’s not forget, that the “running distance” and “effective range” of the torpedo is two different things. If you are firing against the enemy that chased you, your effective torpedo range is basically doubled (because the enemy is moving toward your torpedoes).

            So the League ships probably would not move in predictable pattern.

          9. AvatarBy Steve Moore on

            Make a interim base in Venezuela, very shallow oil fields and light oil, plus already controlled by the Doms. From there, Cuba is much more threatened.

            Not to mention the mysterious East Coast entities that don’t like the NUS very much. Assuming that their technology is even with the NUS, it’d be pretty easy for the LOT to set up an American base at say, Jacksonville or Savannah.

            But best thing Reddy can do now it get some Nancys and P-1D’s to Cuba. Plus all of the Japanese torpedo planes, and start building copies in the RRP. They supposedly have better engines, and the RRP is going to need land-based torpedo planes to defend the Cape. Send plans for the MTB’s to the NUS, and get a supply of engines and fuel on the way from the RRP.

            Supply from the RRP being key to the Alliance’s success; it would not surprise me if the LOT does not wait for the battleships and cruisers, but sends the destroyer flotillas with oilers to disrupt supply lines and destroy the remainder of the Alliance Navy Clan. They don’t need battleships.

          10. AvatarBy Steve Moore on

            Isn’t the U-112 in crappy shape, with the crew dispersed and unwilling to be pig-boat men again? Torps a different size, unless they re-line the tubes?

            Other idea is once they meet up with Halik, convince him to join the side of the CM, and bo back to Arabia to put a little pressure on the LOT’s eastern frontier. Maybe a squadron of Cantets to serve as ‘Night Witches’ and fire-bomb at night.

            Not to mention the Ju-52 flying in a reverse Kg 200 role, adding to night terror raids.

          11. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

            “Not to mention the mysterious East Coast entities that don’t like the NUS very much.”

            Yeah, and let’s not forget: they may be also the reason why Dom’s decided to abandon the whole Mexican Valley after war with NUS.

            “Other idea is once they meet up with Halik, convince him to join the side of the CM, and bo back to Arabia to put a little pressure on the LOT’s eastern frontier. Maybe a squadron of Cantets to serve as ‘Night Witches’ and fire-bomb at night.”

            One problem. Why should Halik faction or CM faction fight the League? League done nothing wrong to them, and I suspect that CM would be highly critical of the idea “you should fight them because they are bad guys”. Halik also have no reason to fight the League.

            Let’s not put the Grik Empire into the “good guys” list too fast. First of all, they have serious internal split, which would probably consume most of their resources on in-fighting. Secondly, they have little reason to love the Alliance, and even less reasons to dislike the League.

            The most probable outcome, frankly, would be for Grik Empire to stay out of League-Alliance war, but providing Alliance with raw materials and pre-fabricated components as a part of “peace threaty”. Considering Grik enormous production capabilities, they could easily fulfill Alliance need of steel, powder, chemical materials.

          12. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

            “Not to mention the Ju-52 flying in a reverse Kg 200 role, adding to night terror raids.”

            Night raids against what? How would they navigate at night over unknown land?

          13. AvatarBy Lou Schirmer on

            “Problem is, that sub could not keep with DD very well.”
            Actually, it should have no problems keeping up. Reddy knows the LOT has essentially expended two subs already, so they probably have more, one or two of which may accompany the LOT fleet. Reddy’s flotilla would probably be going slow enough for their sonar to be effective (16-18 knots) & zig-zagging. One the other claw, as Steve says, the U-112 is in poor shape & the crew may not want to fight the LOT. On the third tentacle, some of them may agree to it since they’d be fighting mostly the French & Italians & they can fill out the crew with what’s left of the S-19 folks, & cat volunteers. They should have a full load of German torpedoes, they could off load a couple for study & use the rest.
            “It would work only if LOT would engage in direct stern chase. And they probably wouldn’t.”
            They might, you never know, especially if they think the allies might escape if they don’t pursue directly. Plus anti-torpedo tactics call for turning either into or away from the torpedo spread to parallel it. If they are in direct pursuit, they should be already almost parallel to any incoming tracks.

          14. AvatarBy Justin on

            Pretty sure Alexey means the actual fight. Even flank speed is 8 knots underwater for a pre-XXI U-Boat, so she’d already have to be in the combat zone ahead of the Allied fleet in order to be useful.

            I mean, there’s got to be a reason why the USN had their subs doing search and destroy, rather than operating as fleet scouts.

          15. AvatarBy Lou Schirmer on

            Right, but most of the time they operated on the surface. She’d accompany Reddy’s flotilla & submerge when smoke is sighted on the horizon, then wait for an opportunity.
            As far as operating with the fleet, the US subs were, on occasion, deployed in picket lines ahead of the IJN line of advance. Sometimes just reporting on their movements, but other times, taking a shot. Also to consider is the USN had 3-4 time more subs available than Reddy has modern surface ships. They could afford to spread them out.
            Hopefully, by the time they get there, some of the new aircraft came with them to help out.

          16. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

            Problem is, that for this to work, the submarine needed to be positioned exactly right. I.e. Reddy would need to predict his LOT opponent course of action perfectly. And, with all respect, but it is impossible. Too many variables.

            The underwater trap is SUPPOSEDLY workable tactics, but not with a single submarine. The slightest deviation of pursuing LOT navy from the course would be enough for sub to not be able to attack at all. Or even to detect the enemy. Periscope is not exactly the best surface search tool around.

            It may work in the situation when the opponent is restrained in movement (like in a narrow), but problem is, that opponent, traversing the narrow, would expect underwater attacks.

          17. AvatarBy donald johnson on

            “Not to mention the mysterious East Coast entities that don’t like the NUS very much.”

            My guess is that the unknown enemy is the Vikings.
            #1 they were known to have been in the area after 1000 ad “Eric the red” era.
            #2 They were very aggressive against all they met at the time.
            As they would be very capable of building small fast ships they can be a very capable enemy and as slave holders they would want to get more from wherever they could catch them. This would generally piss off all who meet them including the NUS.
            Their tech level is surprisingly high and they had good steel though it was only swords at the tome of crossover.
            Although they did not have guns at the time of crossover they would undoubtedly have them now by capturing a few ships with them by night attacks of which they were well known for.
            This is my reasoning for the unknown enemy.
            Oh yes they would be followers of Odin as the ones who were out looking at time of the crossover were generally trying to stay out of the hands of the catholic/christian newcomers that were taking over their homelands.

          18. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

            “Although they did not have guns at the time of crossover they would undoubtedly have them now by capturing a few ships with them by night attacks of which they were well known for.”

            I’m afraid, you overestimate Viking’s lore greatly… Let’s not forget: vikings were not a nation, they were a profession. Scandinavia in 8th-11th centuries have a lot of population, but very limited lands for farming (and the available land wasn’t exactly rich also), so quite a lot of young males seek fortune and glory elsewhere.

            In the conditions of Destroyermen’s World, where the land is perfectly available… why should our vikings bother to sail & raid someone? Especially considering that human populations are rather small & dispersed, and there are an awful lot of dangers on the way. What’s the point of sending longships to raid some primitive poor tribes? And entities like Dominion is clearly too big for even vikings to mess with.

            “Although they did not have guns at the time of crossover they would undoubtedly have them now by capturing a few ships with them by night attacks of which they were well known for.”

            With all respect, but vikings trying to capture a Dominion ship would not be even a bad joke. The Dominion naval technology – even just sailing one – is centuries ahead of any available to vikings. Trying to board the pinnace from viking longboat… well, let’s say that the best chances vikings would have if Dom’s sailors would laugh themselves to death…

          19. AvatarBy Justin on

            ROB describes them as a bunch of “diverse, insular and often belligerent tribes;” that sounds a lot like Norsemen, albeit probably not as advanced as Donald suggests. Definitely nowhere close to raiding the Dominion even with Roanoke gunpowder.

            While the reasons to go Viking are unclear, one theory suggests the need to steal brides… and Vinland wouldn’t have many (the DD-verse even less). It’s not hard to imagine a bunch of hybrid Norse-First Nations clans all feuding with each other.

          20. AvatarBy donald j johnson on

            The viking were actually more of a single force than most realize. in around 800 to 900 they had a single leader for many of the local tribes up in the Jutland area. Iceland was a single nation and Greenland had been settled. They had discovered how to determine the suns location using a form of calcite. Their swords were of extremely high quality steel.
            As far as capturing ships you must realize that just because a ship has guns and the enemy does not is not cause to justify that the ones with guns won’t loose especially if over 100 years of trial the viking would not learn that
            1) night attacks make it easier to sneak onto an anchored ship from small boats.
            2) keep trying until you succeed.
            my guess is that they lost their first ship in their first 10 years of exploring the area. they pissed off the vikings with their attitude somehow (easy to understand) and failed to realize that they need to keep a ready watch for the enemy.
            Yes they were fighting each other but not to the death but more of an capture the flag attitude. and after peace is obtained the youngsters would go brawl somewhere else for a while. and maybe buy wives instead of steeling them. This is also the way the american Indians did it

          21. AvatarBy Justin on

            Norse kings had pretty short shelf lives, which is partly how the Anglo-Saxons and Franks managed to contain them; even the Great Heathen Army fell to pieces in the end. There might’ve been a time where the whole East Coast was united under one ruler, but that’s clearly not the case now.

          22. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

            “As far as capturing ships you must realize that just because a ship has guns and the enemy does not is not cause to justify that the ones with guns won’t loose especially if over 100 years of trial the viking would not learn that”

            Dom’s did not just have guns. They have EVERYTHING. Better sail plane, higher freeboard, better anti-boarding tactics. They are descendants of the much more advanced seafaring culture that Vikings even dreamed to be. And to be exact: Spaniards of post-reconquista era were absolutely badass in boarding actions.

            And 100 years of trials is not exactly that much, considering the cost of each failure and not exactly clear benefits of the victory. Again: no population pressure, plenty of farming land. The transferred northerners simply have no reason to go viking – it does not pays off, the most available targets (the Dom’s) are much more likely to kill and rob them than visa-versa, and considering the very aggressive fauna around, the rulers of settlements would not took it kindly if some youths would declare “I’m sick of farming, let’s go robe Dom’s – surely, after a hundred years of being totally massacred by them we MUST win this time!”

          23. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

            “1) night attacks make it easier to sneak onto an anchored ship from small boats.
            2) keep trying until you succeed.”


            1) And why do you think Dom’s never heard about small boat attacks against anchored ships? This was a basic tactics of many pirates since Viking times, and Dom’s are of much later culture.

            More than that, considering the average conditions of Destroyermen’s world, it’s utterly impossible to imagine Dom’s tradeship being on anchor near unknown landmass without all possible lookouts ready & guards on the watch.

            2) Keeping trying required quite a lot of spare population. And quite stupid one, to continue to annoy Dom’s without any need to do that.

            “my guess is that they lost their first ship in their first 10 years of exploring the area. they pissed off the vikings with their attitude somehow (easy to understand) and failed to realize that they need to keep a ready watch for the enemy.”

            Justin, Dom’s are much MORE advanced civilization than Vikings! It was THEM who may be pissed off by Vikings, not the visa-versa. Considering that Dom’s are basically better in everything, from seafaring to swordsmanship (yeah, this things improved too), basically any clash between them would be a total disaster for Vikings. And if they manage to annoy the Dom’s, Dom’s would just send a relatively small punitive expedition to exterminate them.

          24. AvatarBy Justin on

            Yo Alexey, Don’s the one talking about raiding Dommie ships. High tension or not, don’t go putting text in my box!

        3. AvatarBy Steve Moore on

          Sounds like other civilizations are nothing but untermensch to the LOT, so Halik may have no choice, And if he’s in Arabia, he’s sitting on oil that the LOT would probably covet.

          What was the navigation system the Luftwaffe used for night bombing? Huckbein or something like that? THink it worked something like LORAN.

          1. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

            No, it wasn’t anything like LORAN. LORAN us time-delay system: plane send a signal, transponders on the ground recieve and re-send it, and the time between signal sending & return (diveded by two, minus the know transponder reaction time) gave the distance from the transponder. Several transponder station create a series of distance redings, which then could be used to approximate plane position.

            German system used Lorentz beams, i.e. narrow-focused radio beams. Two such beams were used in pair, each encoded with signl sequence: the right one beam send short signals with long pauses, and the left one – long signals with short pauses. Since the beams were send very close to each other, there exist a very narrow zone where BOTH signals overlapped, producing one continious signal.

            The plane navigator used his radio gear to listen to the beam. As long as he heard a continious, uninterrupted sound, it means that the plane is on exactly the right path moving along the overlapping area between the beams. But if plane strayed, say, to the left, the navigator would now hear only the left beam – long signals with short pauses. He would immediately realize that the plane went out of the path, and order pilot to turn right.

            To determine exact location, two intersecting pair of beams were used. One determined the plane approach. The other was to pinpoint the bombing location: the intersection determined the point to drop bombs.

            The system was fairly accurate, but A – it was line-of-sight only (could not be used beyond a few hundred km), and B – the straight line approach made the plane course very predictable. And C – Germans, being rather inept in electronics, never figured out how to make system jamming-proof, so after a while British neutralized it by just generating a false intersection beams.

    2. AvatarBy Steve Moore on

      Don’t think they’d need the bombers. Look what one destroyer did to the NUS bleet. Imagine sending a squadron into Mobile Bay, a la Narvik or Balikpapan.

      1. AvatarBy Alexey Shiro on

        Agreed, but bombers are… more psychologically-damaging for pre-flight civilization. The naval attacks still allow the other side to think “if we would be far enough from sea, we have a chance”. The aerial attacks could hit anywhere.

        Recall the British shock from the first zeppelin raids in 1915. They weren’t exactly very destructive; but psychological damage was enormous. All British suddenly realized, that anyone could be killed. That there is no “safe from war” places; aerial attack could reach anywhere.

        And League have much better bombing capabilities than German zeppelins of WW1 – and much less moral restrains…

        1. AvatarBy Matt White on

          I agree bombers would be extremely effective. The question then is how would they pull it off. Given intel received from defectors the League isn’t capable of such a logistical undertaking at the moment.

          No bombers that they could conceivably have possess the range to cross the Atlantic. That means they have to be broken down and shipped. That will slow things down. Fuel and munitions also have to be shipped and resupply would be slow. Then again, if you’re right they only need one or two bombing raids to achieve their goal. There is also the risk that must be considered. The league has lost one modern destroyer from brilliant Union tactics already. They can’t know for sure that there aren’t more ships in the Atlantic already and while their modern warships would crush them, we have good reason to believe they aren’t in a good position to deploy escorts at this time.

          French, Italian and German warships in our world also didn’t have the range of their British and American counterparts either. I think it’s reasonable to assume the same is true here. So that means the escort also needs an axillary to supply it. So one ship for the planes, another for ordinance, an escort and an oiler for the escort. This is starting to become a decent sized operation. To ensure safety and the only warship isn’t defeated by underhanded tactics it would be prudent to bring a second…and an oiler for it as well of course.

          Not impossible but something that would take time to arrange. There’s also the risk in using the bombers. Even without air defence of any kind some can be lost. Mechanical casualties, accidents, bad weather etc. Would League leadership be willing to commit the bombers on their own far from supply and spare parts?

          I’m not sure. They have been both cautious and willing to make expensive risks. They flip flop back and forth. Savoie and the uboat were both logistical liabilities. We don’t know about not-surcouf and the Macchi-messers were definitely important and an expensive loss.

          It could go either way. But I think if they do try it, it will take time and wouldn’t happen in the next book.

        2. AvatarBy Justin on

          It seems to be a moot point, since it looks like the League’s just going to skip the NUS altogether and attack the Pass directly.

  9. AvatarBy Jeff on

    Minor question. Been cruising through the previous books again and am in Storm Surge now. A couple of times Matt referenced a conversation he had with his cousin, and Orrin has done the same thing.

    Thought that was a dream Matt had while recovering from the fight with Hoo-yoo-dammy. He made it from a sick bed in Manila to New Ireland where his cousin told him about Doolittle’s raid.

    Just wondering if I missed something, or maybe they spoke via radio, or maybe just another Mandela Effect blip ……


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