March 17

General Discussions

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River of Bones Revise



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Posted March 17, 2016 by Taylor Anderson in category "Uncategorized


    1. By Taylor Anderson on

      I actually like this one a lot, for numerous reasons. First, it is consistent with the vague descriptions thus far given. Second, I will now reveal that the Repub aircraft insignia looks, to a certain Lemurian, “like a black, two-headed lizardbird in a white square.” Very consistent with previous description and the roundel in the center of your flag. The cross is also consistent with pre-SMS Amerika contacts of all sorts, but similar enough that Germans wouldn’t lobby for any changes. (I highly doubt a nation state as old as the Republic would change its flag to accommodate such relative newcomers). It has also been established that, though the most influential past additions were probably Lemurians, Romans (possibly multiple times, from the Republic through Eastern Empire Eras–and probably some weird mixtures in between), Chinese, Greekish Egyptians–think anybody with seagoing ships robust enough to reach the place whether we can prove they actually did it IOTL or not–many other, smaller contingents have doubtless arrived through time. It has also been established that the most recent of these (pre-Amerika) was late-mid 19th Century. In any event, there could’ve been Dutch, Portuguese, Italians, Brits, maybe even a Yankee Clipper. (Remember the description of extreme topsail schooners?) Anyway, add in the Lemurians, like I said, the Gentaa, and all the other local peoples who might’ve become part of the Republic over time and you get a REALLY mixed melting pot.
      That leads me to my only real quibble with your flag. Not enough ethnic sentiments in the field. If there are going to be any, there should be more, I would think.

      1. By Lou Schirmer on

        I’m not sure they would even have had a flag as such, before the Germans & SMS Amerika or possibly late Europeans &/or Americans. Most early peoples used symbols (i.e. Roman Eagle), or just color patterns hanging from a cross piece on a pole. The Lemurian’s didn’t have a flag at all, when first encountered, IIRC. The Republic flag may be a fairly recent innovation.
        I’d be happy to add some symbols though. There would have to be a pattern of sorts, or it would start to get cluttered & messy looking.
        Guys, any suggestions…no obscene Phoenician graffiti please. Matthieu, I’m looking at you.

        1. By Justin on

          Let’s break it down.
          – The Cats were first, but they seem to have assimilated into the human factions.
          – The Ptolemaic Egyptians would’ve been next, followed by the Romans, then the Ming Chinese. It’s not stated, but there may be Carthaginian and Muslim Caliphate groups too.
          – But only the Europeans would think of a conventional 1:2 or 2:3 flag. The Portuguese and Dutch would’ve arrived first.
          – For the sanity of everybody involved, real or fictional, let’s assume anyone crossing over afterwards (Amerika included) is subject to “you snooze, you lose.”

          Upon further research, most groups can (fortunately) all be represented by a crescent and a star… perhaps a Macedonian Star, as a nod to the capital city?

          The sun and moon were common Imperial symbols, so the Chinese shouldn’t complain too much. The Romans get the centrepiece and have no right to complain at all.

          The Europeans will want a say too (since it was their idea). Dutch orange could probably be blended with Ming yellow, but the Portuguese like green and red; somebody’d have to talk ’em into ditching the green.

          1. By matt white on

            Well I think its important to note who are the sizable minorities in the republic. It is heavily implied and almost certain that many small groups have arrived over the ages but most are likely quite small and they didn’t keep much of a cohesive community or identity beyond a generation or so.

            The major cultures that influence the current Republic are, the Romans, ancient Chinese, Gentaa, ancient Lemurians and Imperial Germans. I also wouldn’t under estimate the influence the Germans have. They brought with them a great deal of technology and not a small group either. Amerika nominally has a crew of 577, some were likely casualties but there are also the British POWs so those combined we are looking at around a thousand men. They are influential enough to have the monarch of the republic formally called Kaiser as well. So I doubt they are in a snooze you lose situation.

            I think any flag would likely incorporate elements of the above major minorities as well as some uniquely Republic symbols as well. I could see the Imperial German colors of red black and white, with a Roman Aquila instead of a Prussian Eagle, with added Chinese and Gentaa iconography on the sides. Not sure what would be considered a symbol of the republic but they are where South Africa is located in our world and my South African has used the southern cross before. IIRC constellations are the same in that world.

          2. By Taylor Anderson on

            “you snooze, you lose.”
            Agreed, and pretty much what I said in a more refined, genteel fashion. And the Dutch and Portuguese as well since they probably would’ve only arrived in single ships. Flags have been around a long time, though, plenty of time to adopt symbols from all sorts of standards and even change many times. Maybe the square or rectangular banner only arrived three or four hundred years ago–but maybe not. Either way, still plenty of time to adopt it, particularly for naval use. But they do have special purpose pennants as well, remember? Not something to lose sleep over. That brings up the land forces. Before the reformation after the battle of Gaughala, I don’t think I ever described them, but always imagined the various legions under their own eagle. Perfectly traditional, and all sorts of other devices might’ve been added. ALSO traditional. What about after the reformation, though? I’ve given this considerable thought but don’t want to taint your speculations. I might like your ideas better than mine. :) Remember though, Courtney and Bekiaa’s influence cannot be understated.

          3. By Lou Schirmer on

            I’m not sure about Egyptian crossovers, they weren’t really a sea power, more of a coastal one, unless something was blown down from the Red Sea area. If I was to make a bet on the earliest crossovers, it would be the Phoenicians. They went everywhere & had probably the first alphabet using one symbol for one sound, a major innovation at the time.
            Following that, maybe the Greeks followed by the Carthaginians. The Carthaginians were much more of a sea power than the Romans at first. Maybe the Roman contingent arrived after the Carthaginians were defeated & Rome did become a sea power.
            The next bunch could even be Vikings, they got into all sorts of strange places. Although no mention has been made of them.
            The Chinese could have arrived essentially any time, but the Ming Dynasty has been mentioned, so they’re probably the next bunch to show up.
            After that, the great explorers around Africa were first the Portuguese & then the Dutch. Back when, with Spain & Portugal at odds, the Pope divided the world between them & the Spanish got most of the New World & the Portuguese got Brazil, Africa & the routes to the East Indies. Later treaties argued who got what as far as India & Asia were concerned.
            They would be followed by the British East India Company & then any Americans.
            We know nothing of the Gentaa’s iconography, or history, & with them keeping to themselves, they may not want representation on a flag.
            The Lemurians had no real symbols or totems except the Tree. I don’t know if the Republic population retained the reverence for that or not, but it’s a possibility.
            I like Justin’s crescent & star idea, with maybe a stylized tree with branches over all the other symbols, to say who was first & to show unity.

          4. By Taylor Anderson on

            Very good, and by “Greekish” Egyptians, I mean Ptolemaic of course. And the Greeks had some very seaworthy ships before and during this period. Actual early Egyptians can’t be written off, either, if you believe Thor Heyerdahl. or they might’ve gotten close, traveling up the Nile. Evidence suggests very early Egyptians explored really deep. A crossover occurs and they find themselves in luxuriant jungle instead of desert (with a brutal desert at their backs) and push on, perhaps at a period when the Grik have exhausted themselves in internecine warfare. Maybe a passage is briefly easier, or escape closes behind them. Not saying that’s the deal, but it would be fun to write whether they survived or not. Otherwise, sure: the Carthaginians and Phoenicians are a good bet. Might even have been the cause of some early strife in a nascent Republic when the Romans showed up. Memories were long.

            Ultimately, however, it is clear that the Republic has enjoyed relative stability for quite some time. Their unity and architecture testifies to that. And of course they’ve always had a unifying threat looming over them to the north. Flags as we know them and use them today or not, their unifying symbols have probably been fairly long established. On the other hand, I see no reason not to tweak them from time to time, like adding a star to Old Glory from time to time, or the creation of the Union Jack.
            Come to think of it, few national flags have remained entirely static over the last couple of hundred years, so I guess an argument could be made either way.

            I fully recognize that the greatest obstacle involved in this sort of group exercise is the simple fact that I’m the only one in the world who knows all the answers, but at this point I simply can’t blow or it really would diminish your enjoyment of the story from a discovery standpoint. I think we can still make a pretty good flag, if you like. I’ve given a lot of hints. But certain absolutes, like the origin of the Gentaa, exactly who all HAS DEFINITELY contributed to the advancement of the Republic throughout time must necessarily remain obscure for now. Perhaps a combination of Lou’s, Matt’s and Justin’s proposals are closest to the mark, incorporating symbols acceptable to the most diverse constituency.
            I caution you not to read too much into this however, since this inclusiveness has NOT resulted in identity politics or rabid PC (with the possible past exception of the Gentaa.) These were all symbols of UNITY, just like the stars on Old Glory used to be.

          5. By Lou Schirmer on

            On further reflection, the Phoenicians & early Greeks & Egyptians may not be viable crossover candidates, if we’re postulating transfer squalls are attracted to ferrous metals. Those era peoples were mostly still using bronze instead of iron or steel. If we’re thinking anything metallic attracts the squalls, then all bets are off.
            Are we thinking all metals or just iron & steel attract squalls?

          6. By Justin on

            Matt: Marginalizing a group is a good way to piss them off – just ask the League’s Germans. The Republic’s obviously not going to put in a symbol from every minority, but their general melting pot philosophy implies that they’d hardly go “Rome, Ming, Kaiserreich, end of story.”

            Lou: Thanks, though I’d narrow it down to just a crescent/tree or crescent/sun if you’re going that way; three symbols on one quarter would be somewhat crowded.

            Courtney’s theory is still just a theory; it could be conducting metals rather than just magnetic ones, which means all the bronze/copper/silver on a Classical period ship would work too. And then there’s speculation of Gri-kakka and “dragons” crossing over to our time, so it might not be metal-related at all.

            At any rate, Ptolemaic Greeks have been mentioned before – and the capital being Alex-aandra rather than Heliopolis points to Cleopatra’s Egypt rather than Ramses’.

            Mr. Anderson: Not saying early Egyptians couldn’t have made to South Africa and survived, but the various kingdoms’ war-making ability more or less peaked at Kadesh and stayed there for the next few millennia. The pre-Walker Lemurians at least had superior tech and an ocean in the way.

          7. By Matt White on

            @Justin. I’m not arguing for marginalizing anyone. What I am saying is that large scale passages of homogeneous groups is probably rare and most who find themselves in the republic were small contingents. A fishing vessel, a hunting party, a surveying expedition etc. These groups are so small in number that they are unlikely to form a strong cultural identity within the republic and were likely fully assimilated within a few generations. We know of a few big ones and while Taylor says they aren’t the only big ones we know that they were large and influential enough to keep some form of identity and it had a major effect on the culture of the republic. In other words there’s no point in adding a symbol to a group nobody identifies with anymore.

            @Taylor. Definitely no identity politics. The republic couldn’t function the way it does if it did. I’m really curious to see who is also a major influence besides the ones we already know about. I’m also a fan of Bradford’s theory that the gentaa aren’t some hybrid but a completely different species from another earth.

          8. By Justin on

            Matt: Not necessarily identity politics, but definitely more than flat-out absorption.

            The Republic seems to have a melting pot resembling Singapore’s; rather than one or two founding ethnicity/cultures that all the others are centred around, they’re all equally respected. SG’s flag is designed in a similar fashion.

            So the Big Three civs definitely get dibs, but IMO even if some of the small factions have disappeared, they probably get flag space, acknowledging their role in the Republic’s history. Even if it’s a tree or star or moon and they all have to share it.
            Maybe one star per civ, if that’s not too similar to the American or Union flags.

          9. By Taylor Anderson on

            Very good points, Matthieu, and Legionary standard might hang down from a crosspiece under a distinctive device and possibly even vary slightly themselves from one legion to another–besides just the legionary number. Another cool exercise. So far we have just focused on the naval flag that might well HAVE been most influenced by the German or 19th century contingents.

  1. By Charles Simpson on

    Warning Wild cover speculation Warning!

    For those who have not seen it the cover of Destroyermen 14 PASS OF FIRE here’s a link:

    So are the two sailing ships:

    1) The captured Dom vessels USS Sword and USS Destroyer. IE from Second Fleet in the Pacific.

    2) The USS Matarife and a NUS vessel. IE. from the Atlantic.

    Also who shot down the Alliance aircraft a Grik bird with a Tommy gun?

    1. By Justin on

      There’s a plane being shot down on practically every cover. I wouldn’t read too much into it.

      1. By Doug White on

        Every time I read Justin’s post I have to laugh because it is SO true

    1. By Lou Schirmer on

      Nice, very dramatic. I was under the impression the Leone class Esploratori had four twin 4.7″ mounts not four singles. Also I don’t think the navy clan frigates & DDs would even have spirit sails, much less use them in combat & most sailing navies would furl their courses as a fire hazard before battle. On the other claw, it saves the artiste from all that pesky detail work.

      1. By Lou Schirmer on

        Thinking about it, the spirit sail may indicate it’s a captured Dom ship under new management.

    2. By Nestor on

      Very dramatic, kudos to the artist! BTW, it may look a bit blurry and indistinct but the CES flag in Leone’s foremast look kinda familiar to me…

    3. By Justin on

      Say, is that a five-stripe Betsy Ross behind Leopardo? If so, the NUS is now committed, and kudos to the artist.

    4. By Charles Simpson on

      On Facebook Taylor estimated the release more likely between May and June of next year.

  2. By Taylor Anderson on

    A lot of people have asked me why I don’t do a “Destroyermen Companion,” and I’ll confess it’s something I’ve wanted to do for a long time. Only thing is, my agent assures me “they’ll never buy it. Nobody is buying companions right now.” Ok, that’s not really my concern. I think it would be cool if it was just “out there,” available for free download. Kind of like the WIKI but more focused and easy to reference. My agent thought THAT was a great idea, particularly if it featured a brief synopsis of each book, all the maps and artwork associated with them, and maybe some Courtney-style narrative from time to time. I thought about it some more and asked him “So, if it’s free . . . why can’t I get fans to help build it? Contribute art of their own (subject to review, like we’ve done before) and stuff like that?” Guess what? He thought that was a good idea too.
    Contributors still couldn’t do “fan-fic” for the companion/series synopsis I envision (yet, at least, since the series is still ongoing) but they could contribute original art, like I said, and imaginative details that would become canon–as long as they were willing to sign a contract releasing rights, etc. (It would be free, after all), but I’d make sure they got credit for contributing so they WOULD be “e-published.” Sort of. Anyway–and before I put this idea up anywhere else–what do you guys think?
    This isn’t a moneymaking scheme, it’s a way for the D-Men community to help put things in order, maybe flesh things out, and get involved if they want to. A collaborative labor of love for the story. That’s how I see it, anyway.

    1. By Justin on

      Sweet. Exactly what kind of imaginative details are we thinking of here?

    2. By Charles Simpson on

      The WIKI is both easy and hard to find things in first there is a search function that may or may not find pages for you quickly. Spelling counts, and like a dictionary if you can’t get the first few letters correct you are done.

      The closest thing to an index is the categories file. Here is a link to the Destroyermen Wikia category file:

      If you are on the Wiki go to move the pointer to Community when the pop up menu appears below left click on Special:Categories.

      There are 336 named characters in the books only a few of these have full biographies in the books. This might give you an idea of the amount of data. The Wiki program allows you to count pages in each category, thus I can tell you of the 336 named characters 22 are male Grik or only 6.5% of named characters are Grik males.

      We can use help on the Wiki too, and it might prevent duplicated effort.

      Charles ‘Pokermind’ Simpson, Bureaucrat Destroyerman WIKI

      1. By donald j johnson on

        I am all for it. The timeline info and all the good wiki stuff all in print and all the names.