3,344 COMMENTS :

  1. By Paul Smith on

    If this has been asked before, I apologize. Is the sonar from the Hidoiame recoverable(not destroyed in the sinking/ wrecking of the ship) and if so, are the manuals available? Her sonar should be a lot better than Walkers. If not, could it be reverse engineered from the pieces. I assume the big differences would be in the design of the sound head, or maybe the amplification section of the sonar.

    Reply
    1. By Justin on

      Sonar sets are usually somewhere between the bridge and the bow keel, so it should have survived an amidships collision.

      Problem is that even interwar ASDIC is a no-go right now. Hydrophones, definitely. Passive sonar, perhaps.

      Reply
      1. By Lou Schirmer on

        Walker’s sonar seems to be doing OK. It found & helped sink the Sourcouf type sub & is used in active mode to scare off mountain fish. They’ve installed at least the ping generators in most ships for that purpose & I think the new DDs have full up active & passive sonar.

        Reply
    1. By Lou Schirmer on

      Plus, she was hit by two torpedoes, so she may have significant damage to the port screws & possibly damage to the port reduction gearing & some flooding. Even with weak torpedo warheads, that section even on BBs is lightly armored if it has any.

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      1. By Charles Simpson on

        Flooding was reported, and they called for firemen to keep steam up for the pumps in the book.

        Reply
      2. By Lou Schirmer on

        If they have to do repairs on her engines, they might as well swap her old turbines & boilers out for new Walker turbines & boilers. With 23K extra horse power, she could probably do 24 knots or so, plus they wouldn’t have to build & test one of a kind parts for her.

        Reply
          1. By Lou Schirmer on

            Granted she may not do 24 knots, but she will get a speed increase from an extra 23K HP. She was capable 0f 20 knots on 29K HP, even with a bluff hull form she’ll be a few knots faster.

          2. By Alexey Shiro on

            Sigh.

            To get “Conte di Cavour” going from 22 knots to 27 knots, the Italians basically DOUBLED the power output of her boilers & turbines (actually, her max required TRIPLE power increase – forced draught up to 93000 hp), completely redesigned her screws arrangement and remade her hull to be longer.

            //Granted she may not do 24 knots, but she will get a speed increase from an extra 23K HP. She was capable 0f 20 knots on 29K HP, even with a bluff hull form she’ll be a few knots faster.//

            What’s the difference between 20 and 21-22 knots in 1930s?

            And I doubt that the destroyer-grade turbines would be really good for massive battleship… Remember; the “Savoie” have geared turbines, not electrical type.

          3. By Lou Schirmer on

            Sigh.

            She would be getting about an 85% increase in power. That should get her a couple of knots. The main thing however would be installing new equipment the Union knows how to operate & maintain & that isn’t thirty years old with no recent overhaul & that probably couldn’t make 20 knots anymore. Her power plant would be much more reliable & fuel efficient. They wouldn’t have to make parts for just one ship. The Walker turbines are geared, but we’ve had that discussion before about putting them into larger ships & our local experts said it makes no real difference, especially since the Walker turbine sets are more powerful than what they’re replacing.

          4. By Justin on

            With the book’s numbers, it’s actually a 63-75K horsepower increase (up from 29K). That IS a tripled power output, so at least 25 knots seems reasonable.

            I’d be more worried about the guns – nobody’s making 13.4″ any time soon…

          5. By Alexey Shiro on

            Or the stress would start to rip her hull apart. You seems to forget, that in ship’s cases, the hydrodynamic is as important as overall power. Ships AREN’T rockets; they aren’t moving in vacuum, where their engines is the only source of acceleration.

            // that isn’t thirty years old with no recent overhaul //

            Er… all “Bretange”-class battleships have mid-life upgrade in 1930s. Not very complex, but their boilers were replaced and their turbines changed from direct-action to geared.

            So the “Savoie”‘s powerplant is, actually, NEWER AND BETTER than “Walker”‘s.

            //our local experts said it makes no real difference, especially since the Walker turbine sets are more powerful than what they’re replacing.//

            I’m not so sure about that. Especially considering that the “Savoie”‘s turbines are newer.

          6. By Lou Schirmer on

            It appears you’re quite right Alexey, some boilers were change to oil firing in the refit & the direct drive turbines went to geared drive. The horse power was increased to 43K SHP & she went up to 21.4 knots. Amazing!
            While her equipment may be newer, it’s certainly not as powerful as the Walker turbines, & I still think it would be a good idea to replace them, especially if the machinery was damaged by the torpedo hits. After serving with the LOT for five years with presumably low maintenance priority, her machinery is probably in as bad a shape as Walkers was when she crossed over.

            http://www.navypedia.org/ships/france/fr_bb_bretagne.htm

          7. By Justin on

            That was the Courbets in the Thirties; the Bretagnes in the Twenties upgrades their fire control and main battery elevation, and got ONE set of new boilers: https://books.google.ca/books?id=YnS9AwAAQBAJ&pg=PA18&lpg=PA18&dq=bretagne+battleship+refit&source=bl&ots=BT3vlHAySb&sig=yIivV9OCjWQJ4AcHrfbLSS5iXOc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjd0LPGitrVAhVeHGMKHWehCvsQ6AEIYTAK#v=onepage&q=bretagne%20battleship%20refit&f=false

            Given that none of them increased their displacement or got any faster, it’s safe to say any “modern” turbines are no more powerful than the last set.

          8. By Justin on

            Ninja’ed, and corrected. Regardless, even two of Ellis’ turbines would be an upgrade – especially because the French machinery is incompatible with the rest of the Union’s.

          9. By Lou Schirmer on

            The Bretagne class had several overhauls, two in the 20s & one in the early 30s. One of the 20s overhauls replaced the coal boilers with oil fired, but no power upgrade. The overhaul from 31-34 replaced all the boilers & the direct drive turbines with geared drive & raised power to 43K & speed to 21.4 knots.

            http://www.navypedia.org/ships/france/fr_bb_bretagne.htm

      3. By Steve Moore on

        Swap her to the RRP for assets to be named later, like maybe a new-construction cruiser or two. Closer than Baalkpaan, and they’ve got the monitors’ crews to help crew her. Even if she’s parked in harbor, that’s one hell of a shore battery.

        The Alliance needs faster hulls and more commonality in an ocean-spanning fleet. The RRP needs something to stick closer to home, although Cape-able (that’s for Justin) to kick the crap out of anything the League has.

        Failing that, just tow her up to the Zambezi and jam her into the channel. Imagine the fire support she could provide.

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        1. By Steve Moore on

          Or a few Amerika-clone troopships, with Walker turbines & boilers. Just the thing for a fast cruise to the Caribbean and through the Casa Fuego (whatever the hell the name is)

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          1. By Alexey Shiro on

            //Or a few Amerika-clone troopships, with Walker turbines & boilers. Just the thing for a fast cruise to the Caribbean and through the Casa Fuego (whatever the hell the name is)//

            Just a target practice for the first League cruiser met.

            The “Savoie” currently is more valuable than half of whole Alliance fleet. She is the only ship, that could really absorb battle damage, stand and fight, not just bite and run away.

          2. By Steve Moore on

            OK, so keep them away from the LOT’s area of operations and just use them in the Pacific. Getting kind of late, brain ells obviously slipping a few cogs, so will wait for any more snappy comments from you fellows on the other side of the Eggsan-Bacon line until my circadian rhythms start perking again.

            Still think the Savoie is not much more than scrap. Heck, even the FRENCH wanted to get rid of her and keep a puny DD.

        2. By Alexey Shiro on

          //Swap her to the RRP for assets to be named later, like maybe a new-construction cruiser or two.//

          Er… what? Trade the battleship – combat-capable, albeit damaged – for a couple of future cruisers?

          This doesn’t make any sense.

          //Even if she’s parked in harbor, that’s one hell of a shore battery.//

          Oh yeah, gave up the most capable surface combatant avaliable, the only one in the whole Alliance navy, which could really absorb damage!

          //The Alliance needs faster hulls//

          Faster than what?

          // and more commonality in an ocean-spanning fleet. //

          They currently have no commonality at all, so the point is moot.

          //The RRP needs something to stick closer to home, although Cape-able (that’s for Justin) to kick the crap out of anything the League has.//

          The Republic didn’t have any sea-going navy at all! They have no clue what to do with battleship, they have no shore facilities to support her, and they have no escort ships to support her! The Alliance have.

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          1. By Justin on

            The Union’s commitments span half the known world and more. They need heavies that can keep up with 4-stackers as they race across the Atlantic and make hit-and-runs against the League… or at the very least can make it across the Indian and Pacific in a week, and without stopping for gas.

            Whereas the Republic only needs to defend their borders and the Cape, and possibly attack West Africa right in front of them – perfect for a slow, short-range dreadnought.

            So even if the Union keeps Savoie for now, she needs to operate out of Alex-aandra where she can help the most. Once the Republic’s finished taking notes and can put some proper cruisers together, the Union can hand her over in exchange for a panzerschiffe or two.

          2. By Steve Moore on

            Combat-capable? On the beach, shot full of holes, one turret’s damaged. Oh year, and everything’s en francais with maybe one or two French Nazis to translate.
            LOT’s not going to be a problem for a few years, while the Alliance doesn’t really have the need for Savoie.
            Commonality? Same turbines, same boilers, same guns, same crews .
            Monitors are closer to battleships than 4-stackers.
            Savoie’s a ‘nice to have’, but it’s like owning a Citroen DS-19..

          3. By Alexey Shiro on

            //The Union’s commitments span half the known world and more. They need heavies that can keep up with 4-stackers as they race across the Atlantic and make hit-and-runs against the League… or at the very least can make it across the Indian and Pacific in a week, and without stopping for gas.//

            One small problem. The Alliance carriers are slower than “Savoie”, so all this “keep up with 4-stackers” literally make no sence.

            The destroyers are the ESCORTS. They are forced to keep up with capital ships, not visa-versa. For foreseable future, the average speed of Alliance Navy would be less than cruising speed of “Savoie” (10 knots) simply because of extensive use of slow carriers and auxilaries.

            And considering range… the economical range of “Bretagne”-class is 4600 nm. The economical range of “Wickes”-class is 3800 nm. So basically, it would be “Walker”, who would slow down the “Savoie”, not visa-versa.

            //Once the Republic’s finished taking notes and can put some proper cruisers together, the Union can hand her over in exchange for a panzerschiffe or two.//

            Make literally no sence. Nothing the Republic could build in 10-15 years would be as capable as “Savoie”. Don’t forget, their planned “panzerschiffe” are some sort of “coastal battleship-cruisers” of late XIX century.

          4. By Alexey Shiro on

            //Monitors are closer to battleships than 4-stackers.//

            Monitors could not OPERATE with battleships. “Savoie” need destroyers to cover her, fast cruisers to scout for her, and carriers to protect her. The Alliance have all she need. The Republik have literally nothing.

            //LOT’s not going to be a problem for a few years, while the Alliance doesn’t really have the need for Savoie.//

            Yeah, yeah. And how, for Pete’s sake, the Alliance should know that?

          5. By Justin on

            //The destroyers are the ESCORTS. They are forced to keep up with capital ships, not visa-versa. For foreseable future, the average speed of Alliance Navy would be less than cruising speed of “Savoie” (10 knots) simply because of extensive use of slow carriers and auxilaries. //

            A) If the CVs are in any situation where they need 13.4″ support, then they AND Savoie are goners. Remember what happened to Exeter and Nerraca? The best they can hope for is to run and hope whoever’s chasing them is happy with one wooden CV.

            B) For escorts, they sure seem to do a lot of the heavy lifting.

            The Union’s new BB is tough, but she’s still just one ship, and a slow one.
            Inferior odds: toast.
            Superior odds: the League can evade or intercept by the time she gets there.
            Convoy/base raid: See above.
            Escort: still able to do that under the Kaiser – and lets the Republic start building something close to proper capitals.

            What the Union really needs is a Graf Spee-esque raider that can work in tandem with Walker and the others when they go on yet another harebrained adventure.

            //And considering range… the economical range of “Bretagne”-class is 4600 nm. The economical range of “Wickes”-class is 3800 nm. So basically, it would be “Walker”, who would slow down the “Savoie”, not visa-versa.//

            That’s at flank speed – ships spend most of their time at cruising speed. Cruising range of a Bretagne is 4,600 NM at 10 knots – a Wickes can cover 5,000 @ 15 and 3,400 @ 20. Walker just has more mileage.

            Long term, the Union needs a sprinter, or at least an endurance runner; at this point Savoie is neither – she’s more like a floating battery. And after Sofesshk falls, the best place for a floating battery is plugging either Good Hope or the Pass of Fire.

            //Don’t forget, their planned “panzerschiffe” are some sort of “coastal battleship-cruisers” of late XIX century.//

            Generation 1, yes – Generations 2 and 3, given Savoie and a few Union expats to work with, will inevitably be better.

            If we’re drawing up plans for the Union to build a 25,000t battlecruiser, then the Republic (with an immensely superior tech/industrial base and some help) can surely get to an 18-19,000t pocket BB.

          6. By Alexey Shiro on

            Justin, you get it all wrong.

            //A) If the CVs are in any situation where they need 13.4″ support, then they AND Savoie are goners. Remember what happened to Exeter and Nerraca? The best they can hope for is to run and hope whoever’s chasing them is happy with one wooden CV.//

            Exactly what the Union carriers are unable to do, is run. The League have a lot of really fast combatants – light & heavy cruisers, destroyers, large torpedo boats – that could chase and hit the carriers easily. Especially dangerous are cruisers and large destroyers, because they are superior to Union units.

            The “Savoie” is a game-changer. She could simply stand and fight, covering the carriers retreat. In combination with destroyers, she could sucsessfully chase off the LOT light forces without being seriously damaged.

            //The Union’s new BB is tough, but she’s still just one ship, and a slow one.//

            The one battleship is more than enough to make possible combined torpedo-artillery tactics, greatly improving the Union naval capabilities. Battleships and destroyers work quite good in combination, forcing the opponent to divert attention.

            //Inferior odds: toast.//

            NO. Exactly because they have balanced forces, they could get out of inferior odds. Simply speaking, its always hard to crash a balanced force, where participants are capable of full spectrum of tactical solutions.

            //Superior odds: the League can evade or intercept by the time she gets there.//

            Sigh. The Union have carrier superiority, man! They could screen their deployment from Leagues aerial reconnaisance and provide superior situational awarness!

            //Convoy/base raid: See above.//

            Exactly how the League convoy or BASE would evade “Savoie”?

            //What the Union really needs is a Graf Spee-esque raider that can work in tandem with Walker and the others when they go on yet another harebrained adventure.//

            Such useless units are literally the least they need. There are absolutely zero tactical value for heavy raiders in their situation. The League “civilian” communications are all in Mediterranean, and their outer bases are probably supplied by rather large convoys, with coastal aviation to cover. The Union heavy raider would have no chances.

          7. By donald johnson on

            There will be NO new builds by anyone in the next 25 years that will equal the Savoi or any of what the league presently has. The league will NOT risk what they have unless they will have overwhelming force that is capable of totally destroying the enemy with no losses as any loses are irreplaceable within a reasonable time.
            the only present group that has the steel production capability is south Africa and the grik. the British in hawaii cam build the steel but not in the quantity’s needed for battleships nor do they have the iron mines in the quantities necessary.
            The Grik will be landlocked by the end of the next book unless there is a real screw-up so they will not be a real hindrance.

          8. By Justin on

            //The “Savoie” is a game-changer. She could simply stand and fight, covering the carriers retreat. In combination with destroyers, she could sucsessfully chase off the LOT light forces without being seriously damaged.//

            Except a League attack won’t risk one or two light ships piecemeal, they’re going to hit with a full battlegroup of their own.
            Against a lone BB, or a pair of cruisers, or half a dozen DDs, “TF Fir Tree” is strong… against all of them at once? Hence the push for an engine upgrade – even the French BBs can make more than 20 knots! It’s why they threw Savoie away in the first place!

            If the Union’s attacking, they’re going to have her and Walker out front and the CVs in back – strategic depth and all that. Retreating, same thing.
            Either way, if the League thinks it’s alright to trade a couple of light ships to cripple an enemy capital – and they likely will – it’s going to be Exeter, Encounter and Pope all over again.

            Savoie makes the Allies strong enough to plug either the Cape or the Pass of Fire. That’s it.

            //The one battleship is more than enough to make possible combined torpedo-artillery tactics, greatly improving the Union naval capabilities. Battleships and destroyers work quite good in combination, forcing the opponent to divert attention.//

            Which assumes that the Union has superior enough numbers that attention can be diverted.

            The League outnumbers the Allies – send cruisers to block the DDs and let the BBs pound Savoie. They don’t even need to sink her, just mission kill a la Kirishima.

            //Simply speaking, its always hard to crash a balanced force, where participants are capable of full spectrum of tactical solutions.//

            It’s a lot easier when your balanced force is WAY more “balanced” than theirs.

            //The Union have carrier superiority, man! They could screen their deployment from Leagues aerial reconnaisance and provide superior situational awarness!//

            Again, even their BBs are faster and longer-range. “Situational awareness” in this case means a perfect view of the League’s rear ends… and as previously agreed, existing Union bombers won’t even dent them.

            //Exactly how the League convoy or BASE would evade “Savoie”?//

            A) Savoie‘s 20 knots is her top speed. Obviously, she’s not going to steam at flank all the way, because no ship has enough fuel for thatt. Her cruising speed is 10-15 knots – about as fast as a convoy.
            B)”Or intercept.” By the time Savoie reaches a base at 10-15 knots, or even 20, the League’ll have noticed and sent a (faster) battleship of their own to block her. Best of luck withdrawing.

            //The League “civilian” communications are all in Mediterranean, and their outer bases are probably supplied by rather large convoys, with coastal aviation to cover. The Union heavy raider would have no chances.//

            Yet they’ve got ships in the Caribbean, and bases in the Pacific. They can’t be heavily defending everything.

            What the Union needs to do is find a lightly-guarded strongpoint, hit it with everything they’ve got, and get the hell out before the League responds. Savoie, in her current state, is a bit too clumsy for that.

          9. By Alexey Shiro on

            //Except a League attack won’t risk one or two light ships piecemeal, they’re going to hit with a full battlegroup of their own//

            I.e. they need to move around with no less than full battlegroups.

            Should I explain, how it would hamper their ability to project power?

            //Against a lone BB, or a pair of cruisers, or half a dozen DDs, “TF Fir Tree” is strong… against all of them at once? Hence the push for an engine upgrade – even the French BBs can make more than 20 knots! It’s why they threw Savoie away in the first place!//

            The Union currently have one (damaged) battleship, one (near-complete) light cruiser, and three operable destroyers. This is enough, to start forming the actual task force.

            //If the Union’s attacking, they’re going to have her and Walker out front and the CVs in back – strategic depth and all that. Retreating, same thing.
            Either way, if the League thinks it’s alright to trade a couple of light ships to cripple an enemy capital – and they likely will – it’s going to be Exeter, Encounter and Pope all over again. //

            Sigh. You obviously did not uderstood the situation. This couldn’t be Exeter, Encouter and Pope all over again simply because the Union have carriers. They have superior aerial reconnaisance, and fighter screening against League reconnaisance.

            Simply speaking, the Union could threw “fog of war” around, by using the fighters to chase away LOT aerial scouts and Nancy’s to spot LOT surface scouts. Which means, that League’s navy would have hard time trying to anticipate their actions!

            //Which assumes that the Union has superior enough numbers that attention can be diverted.

            The League outnumbers the Allies – send cruisers to block the DDs and let the BBs pound Savoie. They don’t even need to sink her, just mission kill a la Kirishima.//

            For that, League would be forced to combine really large number of their ships in the strike force, and moreover – they need somehow to force Union fleet to meet them. Because Union fleet – due to carrier superiority – could easily AVOID contact with League’s main forces. And stall long enough to engage not in daylight, but in nighttime action.

            Should I remind you, that LOT navy have no particular nighttime training? The USN and IJN were much better than continentals in that kind of action! And the nighttime combat, is a chance for weakest.

            //It’s a lot easier when your balanced force is WAY more “balanced” than theirs.//

            Well, the superior numbers always have a superiority. So what? Surrender immediately? :)

            //Again, even their BBs are faster and longer-range. “Situational awareness” in this case means a perfect view of the League’s rear ends… and as previously agreed, existing Union bombers won’t even dent them.//

            Situational awarness means, that League doesn’t know, where exactly are the Union ships, while the Union knew exactly, where are the League’s ships. The Nancy’s useless as bombers, but they are good scouts. The Union could provide round-the-clock 24/7 contact with League’s forces, thus providing the excellent situation for ambushes, nighttime combined attacks, or strikes against flanks and smaller sub-groups of League’s forces.

            This is all basics of naval tactics, man! Seriously, stop thinking about the naval warfare as some kind of chess party!

            //A) Savoie‘s 20 knots is her top speed. Obviously, she’s not going to steam at flank all the way, because no ship has enough fuel for thatt. Her cruising speed is 10-15 knots – about as fast as a convoy.//

            The actual crusing speed of average cargo hauler of 1930s is no more than 6-7 knots, 8-10 max. This was basically the reason, why US invested so much in “Liberty” ships – beacuse they were FASTER than average civilian hauler, and thus much less vunerable to u-boats (they could travel in “fast” convoys, while the average cargo ships could only move in “slow” convoys).

            //B)”Or intercept.” By the time Savoie reaches a base at 10-15 knots, or even 20, the League’ll have noticed and sent a (faster) battleship of their own to block her. Best of luck withdrawing.//

            So the League must disperce their fleet to have battleships at each base? :) Congratulations: you just lose the war.

            Strategical lesson number one: NEVER DISPERCE THE FORCES UNLESS IT’S UNAVOIDABLE!

            //Yet they’ve got ships in the Caribbean, and bases in the Pacific. They can’t be heavily defending everything.//

            You contradict yourself:

            * They can’t be heavily defending everything
            * the League’ll have noticed and sent a (faster) battleship of their own to block her.

            Please chose something one; either they have battleships everywhere, or their bases aren’t well protected.

            //What the Union needs to do is find a lightly-guarded strongpoint, hit it with everything they’ve got, and get the hell out before the League responds. Savoie, in her current state, is a bit too clumsy for that.//

            You obviously have no idea, about what are you talking about…

            Ok, let’s assume that Union navy hit League station on, say, Azoers. The closest heavy naval presence of the League is in Gibraltar, thousand miles away. How long it would take for the League’s, say, “Leonardo da Vinci” refitted battleship to came from Gibraltar to Azores? Three days, on cruising 12 knots.

            By that time, “Savoie” would be long gone, and – due to the “small fact”, that Union fighters are screening around, hampering the League’s aerial reconnaisance – the “Leonardo” have no idea, where exactly “Savoie” went after attack. To Republic? To NUS? To Carribean? The ocean is big, and battleships are pretty small.

          10. By donald j johnson on

            The one thing to remember is that all we know of the league ships is what one man told us. How do we know he wasn’t lying. Depending on how he was trying to help or hurt the league if he was not trying to hurt us instead he could have underestimated the league so that we would get clobbered or he could have overestimated the league so that we wouldn’t want to fight soon sooner than necessary. We need to get some of our own reconnaissance Over The League bases to determine the truth of the League’s capabilities. Then we will know what we have to worry about. As it is unlikely that the league has radar capable of more than just general detection art long range reconnaissance seaplanes should be able to overfly their bases reasonably well at least once as long as they don’t stop to play like the P-40 did. If they overfly the base Get Over the Horizon and then change directions the league won’t be able to easily take them out before they get their information back. Yes the risk will be great but the information is priceless if they can get it back and with a group of planes transferring all the information between the planes and another group of planes that are only there to read the radio messages and send them back without actually overflying the bases the knowledge will be more likely to come back.

          11. By Justin on

            //Simply speaking, the Union could threw “fog of war” around, by using the fighters to chase away LOT aerial scouts and Nancy’s to spot LOT surface scouts. Which means, that League’s navy would have hard time trying to anticipate their actions!//

            Three problems:
            1) We don’t know if Christmas Island was their only hidden station.
            2) The League’s still tapping the Union’s comms. The Union needs a cipher – even with codewords, all the enemy needs to hear is “Able Zebra is out of water” or something.
            3) If the Buzzard can see the enemy, the enemy can see the Buzzard. No amount of misdirection is going to stop the League radioman from getting on the horn and saying “enemy plane in the open ocean, suspected CV.”

            All it takes is one red flag, and some admiral’s going to scramble the fleet and meet Savoie halfway.
            Goodbye fog of war… unless the plan is to raise so many false alarms that the enemy runs out of gas, THEN attack. That might work.

            //I.e. they need to move around with no less than full battlegroups.//

            As you noted, Rule #1 is Never Disperse; the League may “split up and look for clues,” but they won’t attack one at a time like a Bruce Lee movie.
            Enemy pickets or patrols can always retreat and return with backup. If Savoie tries to attack the backup, she loses and retreats. If she runs or evades, the target is safe for another day. Mission accomplished.

            Crud, they don’t even have to attack the TF – knowing the League, they’re ready to rush the Cape/Caribbean while they’re gone. Then the TF will have to abandon the offensive and find and attack them, and/or come back to a smoking ruin.

            //The Union could provide round-the-clock 24/7 contact with League’s forces, thus providing the excellent situation for ambushes, nighttime combined attacks, or strikes against flanks and smaller sub-groups of League’s forces.//

            Unlike Kurokawa and the Grik, the League’ll be watching for those, and can react accordingly. Light ships will be screening on all sides. Sub-groups can use their superior speed to withdraw. And even with the new torps and a night attack, it’s unlikely that Walker et all will be able to close to 5,000-odd yards (effective Union torp range).

            //The actual crusing speed of average cargo hauler of 1930s is no more than 6-7 knots, 8-10 max.//

            Fair enough.

            //Please chose something one; either they have battleships everywhere, or their bases aren’t well protected.//

            “Defending,” as in “planes.” Even the bombers are limited.

            The League’s been here six years (and just look at how much the Allies have done in three), so they obviously have a strong presence in the Mediterranean.

            Beyond the Med, they’ll have a lot of footholds, but six years might not be long enough to properly fortify and garrison all of them. So some of them will be proper naval/air bases with adequate air cover; others will be mines, rigs, fuel depots and/or listening outposts that can be hit before even bombers arrive… given lack of warning, of course.

            //Ok, let’s assume that Union navy hit League station on, say, Azoers. The closest heavy naval presence of the League is in Gibraltar, thousand miles away. How long it would take for the League’s, say, “Leonardo da Vinci” refitted battleship to came from Gibraltar to Azores? Three days, on cruising 12 knots.//

            The Azores it is, then. It’s too far for any Union ship, so let’s sail through the Carib and bring a tanker.
            Savoie can get there in 11 days’ cruising speed, 6 days’ top speed; a Walker-class can do 5-7 cruising and 3 top, if not better.

            Again, they’re likely to be spotted before they get there.
            If Walker, Ellie and their new sisters go alone, they’ll likely be in and out before reinforcements, but obviously they won’t have enough “punch” to deal with the garrison.
            If Savoie comes along, her low speed and small fuel tanks slow everyone down long enough for Vinci – or worse, Caracciolo – to show up. No-go.

          12. By Alexey Shiro on

            //All it takes is one red flag, and some admiral’s going to scramble the fleet and meet Savoie halfway.
            Goodbye fog of war… unless the plan is to raise so many false alarms that the enemy runs out of gas, THEN attack. That might work.//

            Sigh.

            The “Buzzard” average range, lets assume, is around 1000 km. She is a flying boat, so she could be refueled in sea, if conditions allow that.

            So the only thing that League gonna learn from “Buzzard” contact – “there is a point from where she take off in 1000 km radius”.

            Justin, you constantly forgot; ocean is BIG. Even just 500 km circle defined the area 785398 square kilometers. Without radars, it took A LOT of efforts to just search this area by planes – assuming there are no enemy fighters to hamper with efforts.

            So, your brave League admiral is basically scrambled the fleet and sortied pointlessly. He doesn’t know anything about “where those blasted Union forces are?”. The only thing he knew, is that there are some point from where planes are launching – somewhere around. Nothing more.

            THIS is the “fog of war”. The enemy knew that you are somewhere nearby – but he doesn’t knew exactly where, and the area where you could be is just too big.

          13. By Justin on

            Yup, just like space. Little to no chance of seeing an asteroid, much less hitting one – haven’t forgotten that.
            Also just like space, there’s only a finite amount of approach vectors; if the League knows where the Union came from and kind of where they are now, they can figure out where they’re going.

            What the League admiral would know is the general area in which the Buzzard was spotted… where the Union’s bases are… and where his bases are. From there, it’s just estimating fuel consumption and strategic importance.

            Yes, the Union can plan to fly This Way and make the League guess wrong and sail That Way instead. But a lot of things can go wrong with that, because they can’t control the enemy’s patrol schedule – I believe the KISS principle applies here.
            Not to mention that in the Atlantic proper, there’s a total of about three big island chains, and the League could probably sortie to defend all of them and still match the Union ship for ship.

  2. By Justin on

    Just to recap – our theoretical Fleashooter replacement sports a wooden cover over a wood/steel frame, with a covered cockpit, and a copied BMW 132 (rated at 700+ hp) with a supercharger.

    In which case, we (if not Mallory) happen to have the perfect frame of reference… and ironically, she’s French: http://www.cmchant.com/bloch-mb-700-ww2-fighter

    Reply
    1. By Matthieu on

      This engine is really really optimistic for those planes.

      The supercharger is incredibly complicated to produce (given their current technology). Even if you push things a lot don’t forget that you assume that in less than 5 years they are able to move from brass to highly controlled steel and that they have 87 octane fuel.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrifugal-type_supercharger#/media/File:ATI_ProCharger_Supercharger_Cutaway.jpg

      Are they going to be able to produce blueprints for it? Probably if they have one to work on. Will they be able to produce it now? No way. You need to give them some years to do so.

      Reply
      1. By William Curry on

        What the Allies learned in order to produce the reduction gears for the new ships will supply as lot of the machining knowledge necessary to produce both geared and turbo-superchargers.

        Reply
        1. By Alexey Shiro on

          Sigh. Again: it isn’t as simply as you think to “just reproduce” the superchargers. Without the precise knowledge of exact materials & alloys, exact methods of working, and a lot of high-quality industrial gears – NOT the horde of generally incompetent Lemurians with jury-rigged bad quality tools! – you have the same chances to reproduce the superchargers as to build the space rocket.

          Reply
        2. By Lou Schirmer on

          They could go with a turbo supercharger instead & bypass the gearing issue. If you mount it at a distance from the engine, you also reduce the high heat problems for the impellor, something like the P-47 layout. Exhaust temperatures drop quickly the farther you get from the exhaust manifold. If you put your hand on a car exhaust pipe in front of the muffler, it’s warm but not hot & that’s only about 3 feet from the engine. It doesn’t have to be a high speed one either, if they build it to be a larger, slow turning one, regular engine bearings might work, although roller bearings would be better. Louis Renault patented a centrifugal supercharger in France in 1902, & turbo superchargers were coming into use with aircraft in the early 1920s, so it’s not out of their reach technologically. They just need something to maintain power at altitude if they’re going to have any chance at being competitive with the LOT aircraft.

          Reply
          1. By Lou Schirmer on

            Even if reverse engineering the BMW or Pratt & Whitney engines is too much for them for now (although I think the BMW is doable), they do have the 10 cylinder radial in production now. The engine is maturing & may be uprated to its full potential (430-440 HP) eventually. They could put a simple turbo supercharger on it & with low boost, so as not to stress the engine excessively maybe put it in the 500-550 HP range, but more importantly, maintain its power at high altitude.

          2. By Justin on

            // They just need something to maintain power at altitude if they’re going to have any chance at being competitive with the LOT aircraft.//

            Union/Republic pilots need to develop the tactics that let them keep that power, too.

            We haven’t seen much of the 3rd’s dogfighting style, but Amerika crossed over back when “turn n’ burn” was par for the course – and if the Allies try that, the League’ll chew them up like Zekes against Hellcats. An upgraded engine plus doctrine that favours energy fighting might be enough to level the playing field.

          3. By Steve Moore on

            The Alliance has been in aerial combat for nearly a year, and ground attack against defended targets before that. Compare that to the League, which unless part of the British fleet came over, hasn’t been fighting anyone before or after the transfer. The P-40 and MM’s were pretty evenly matched, and the 3rd Pursuit came out on top. Even dogfighting with Grikbirds, who are energy fighters, probably has helped.

            Secondly, they probably have 3-5 years before the LOT can stage a fleet to the Indian Ocean, maybe 2-3 years to the Carribean. Either place, they’ll need a land base, unless they can build a carrier.

          4. By Justin on

            Yet for the most part the Union’s enjoyed near-total air superiority on both fronts; save for Mallory and Shirley, no living pilots have flown against enemy planes, much less ones that outclass them.
            They’ll need to learn just as much as the League needs to – fly Finger Fours instead of Vics, avoid turning fights, yada yada.

          5. By donald johnson on

            before the League can stage a fleet that will be safe for their own crews they will need to make their ships usable in the Atlantic ocean. Their present fleet is NOT designed for safe operation in the Atlantic but for use in the Mediterranean Sea except for the French fleet. I doubt that there were any German fleet units in the med as they most likely were being used to blockade England along with the French units that were Atlantic capable. They most likely sent what they had already that was Atlantic capable.
            I would not be surprised if the league were not digging a ditch across the Suez as fast as their slaves will let them. This will allow their present fleet to operate in the red sea which is safe for them and will allow them to reach the Indian ocean without having to cross the Atlantic. If so this will take them several years at least. It will also take several years to modify their med fleet to make it Atlantic fleet. The Spanish Destroyers were already Atlantic capable because Spain needs its fleet to be Atlantic capable.

          6. By Lou Schirmer on

            //They’ll need to learn just as much as the League needs to – fly Finger Fours instead of Vics, avoid turning fights, yada yada.//

            Actually, with the P-1Cs, a turning fight is exactly what they want. A lighter, slower fighter will almost always be able to turn inside a heavier, faster opponent. The Italian CR.42 proved that to the British Hurricane pilots dismay at Malta. If the P-1C is what they have if/when the LOT shows up again, they’ll have to adjust their tactics to the fact their only advantages will be the ability to out turn LOT fighters & that they will probably out number them. The Thach Weave may be reinvented by Mallory or some bright cat.

          7. Taylor AndersonsBy Taylor Andersons on

            Actually, the most experienced combat pilot left alive in the Union–complete with experience defeating Zeros in P-40s–is Orrin Reddy. Granted, he hasn’t been featured much lately but that could change…

          8. By Justin on

            // If the P-1C is what they have if/when the LOT shows up again, they’ll have to adjust their tactics to the fact their only advantages will be the ability to out turn LOT fighters & that they will probably out number them. The Thach Weave may be reinvented by Mallory or some bright cat.//

            Sure, Turn n’ Burn’s better than nothing for now, but the Allies shouldn’t double down on it like the OTL Japanese did – lest the Fleashooters end up like Zeroes against Lightnings and Corsairs.

            Remember that there’s equally bright Leaguers that’ll quickly learn to counter with Boom n’ Zoom.
            “Your Macchi’s stronger, so don’t get suckered into a turn with a P-1. Climb up and out, wait for the stronzo to break off, then come back when he’s stalling – or let your wingman do it from behind him.”

          9. By Justin on

            //Actually, the most experienced combat pilot left alive in the Union–complete with experience defeating Zeros in P-40s–is Orrin Reddy. Granted, he hasn’t been featured much lately but that could change…//

            Duly noted – shit, left him out of just one book and I forget he even existed!

            Still, it doesn’t look like Jenks or Lelaa will be able to spare him anytime soon…

          10. By Alexey Shiro on

            //Still, it doesn’t look like Jenks or Lelaa will be able to spare him anytime soon…//

            Well, strategically speaking, going into all this Empire-Dominion mess was the Alliance most costly mistake – instead of expanding their resource base, they actually limited it, and seriously stretched the logistic. I really doubt that Reddy would make such mistake again…

          11. By Justin on

            Seemed like a good idea at the time, didn’t it?

            It works out anyway, since the protagonists are still mostly dominating both fronts. And in the long term, it turns the Pacific into an Allied lake.
            Picture the then-Alliance winning at New Britain and going home… then watching ten books later as the Dommies try again. Or worse – the Dommies letting League raiders through.

          12. By Alexey Shiro on

            //It works out anyway, since the protagonists are still mostly dominating both fronts. And in the long term, it turns the Pacific into an Allied lake.
            //

            Yes, but I doubt Reddy would ever do that again. He already was forced to learn quite fast just to keep pace with Kurokawa (who, let’s admit, was MUCH more capable strategist – which exactly what made him such interesting Bad Guy!), and now he understood that two-front war is pretty much the worst nightmare of any strategist.

            Which made interesting situation about NUS, which are in contact with at least some other powers besides Dominion (more than that, it seems that they are in contact with power that rival Dominion…). I doubt that Reddy would like to be dragged into one more war…

          13. By Charles Simpson on

            Given what they knew at the time, the Grik reeling back from the Alliance, and being a party to the war with the Dominion was Don Hernan’s decision, not Matt Reddy’s.

            Kurokawa may have thought strategically but tragically tended to go off mission when the forces meet. He has panacked multiple times and turned tail and ran. Had Silva not blown it up he would have tried to escape in Nachi.

            They don’t need better aircraft to finish the Grik, the escaping Japanese only have ammunition for one strike, so they don’t balance Alliance air superiority. However Matt must convince the Grik to join the hunt against the League of Tripoli rather than grinding the Grand Swarm and his military to nothing, IMHO.

          14. By Alexey Shiro on

            Kurokawa main problem was the utter lack of correct data about the opponent capabilities. Simply speaking – he have no worthy strategical rdconnaisance or intelligence, and he was completely unable to create one for obvious reason. A few planted agents would gave him everything he need to know to make Alliance history – but the problem was, he has no way to plant said agents. It is pretty hard to put Grik spy into Alliance ranks, after all, and Japanese agent would also be unable to blend in.

            Thats why Kurokawa was constantly unable to correctly estimate the Alliance technical & indistrial capabilities. His personal cowardness, frankly, play very little role in his defeats; if he have correct data, he would won almost all of them.

          15. By Justin on

            The problem was more his delusions and failures of imagination; even with correct data, he’d have rationalized away anything that disproved his existing assumptions.

            Reddy doesn’t have modern aircraft. Oh, he does? Well, he doesn’t have torpedoes – he has those too? Well, he’s only got two destroyers. And now we’ve sunk one! Union guesswork was miles ahead of his throughout the series, if only because group discussion beats autocracy.

          16. By Steve Moore on

            Ego, cowardice or whatever.. eventually you just go to seed.

          17. By donald johnson on

            speaking of going to seed, did they study the plant long enough to determine how it is pollinated. If it is like many other tropical plants it needs a specialized pollinator and can not even pollinate the flowers that are a needed requirement without which the thorns won’t develop. ergo the kudzo plant will be safe from spreading. remember the discussion here on another plant from central america that they were trying to grow in madigasgar in the 1850.s

      2. By Nestor on

        Concur with Matthieu on superchargers. And they can sidestep the issue somewhat by copying the 14 cylinder Pratt & Whitney R-1830’s from their old PBY instead of the 9-cyl BMW’s. R-1830’s have better performance at 1,200 hp. Hopefully they didn’t leave them submerged at the bottom of Baalkpan Bay. :)

        Reply
        1. By Alexey Shiro on

          Er… with the avaliable tech level, their P&W copy would probably tear itself apart at first test run. Again: they have NO trained engineers, NO highly-experienced workforce, and NO technology links & materials required.

          Reply
          1. By Nestor on

            Think of it as gradual progression: If you follow the premise that their original 5-cyl was inspired by the R-1830’s and they’ve already coupled two 5-cyl radials into a double-row 10-cyl for their P-1C’s then beefing up the crankcase further and adding 4 more cylinders may not be too much of a technological leap.

            I’d like to give Lemurians enough credit for their craftsmanship and ingenuity as long as is properly channeled.

          2. By Alexey Shiro on

            If it was that simple, there would be no problem for any country to build the powerful aircraft engines.

            Unfortunately, it isn’t that simple. Just the calculation of all stresses and vibrations would require a large team of skilled mathematics & engineers. Just think about it: it took for USSR two years (two years!!!) just to reproduce Wright R-1820 – and two more years to be able to do that without importing details from USA. And the USSR brought all specification on the engine and have direct US help with copying.

            With all respect, but the Alliance capabilities is FAR, FAR, FAR below the USSR, or even Spain or Poland.

          3. By Charles Simpson on

            Alexey they have one trained engineer Colonel Ben Mallory.

          4. By Alexey Shiro on

            One. And he wasn’t specialized engine engineer, as far as I recall.

            In short – high-powered piston engines are far outside the Alliance capabilities. In a decade, they probably would be able to start working on them, and by late 1950s, they would probably be able to build the engines with enough reliability to put them on a plane.

            But for now, their only way is to put more and more of their primitive engines on plane.

          5. By Nestor on

            Perhaps I should have been more specific, not meant to confuse: I didn’t mean producing a reversed-engineered direct copy of the P&Ws, just a more simplified and less powerful equivalent *inspired* by it, as with their previous radials. Still end up with a slightly upgraded 14-cyl radial using their current expertise without needing to recall Mallory from the frontlines.

          6. By Matthieu on

            It’s still far too optimistic for them. Any change in the design means a complete new analysis and they just don’t have the brains for that.

            If you want an equivalent: between 1914 and 1918 thousands of trained engineers with unlimited supply were tasked to develop new engines. Look at what they’ve been able to do in four years. Now you assume that the alliance will be able to do something much much better in the same timeframe without a single engineer and without any high quality materials…

          7. By donald johnson on

            If they build copy’s of the turbochargers on the P-40 and use good bronze bearings using proper lubrication they should not have too many problems. the bug thing to avoid is excessive rotational speed. so they need to go to a larger impeller in the supercharger and avoid exhaust powered superchargers and place the supercharger directly on the crankshaft. Yes it will be slower and will need be much larger but will not have any belts or gears to go bad.

          8. By Lou Schirmer on

            Exhaust driven turbo superchargers can be used as long as they mount them at a distance so the exhaust charge has a chance to cool. Like the P-47 system. You don’t have to have high temp metals & bearings then. To keep rotational stress down they would do as you said, make the impeller bigger. Exhaust gases cool rapidly to reasonable temps. Just check your car exhaust pipe. With an exhaust driven supercharger you don’t have to worry about gearing at all.

          9. By Matthieu on

            “the bug thing to avoid is excessive rotational speed. so they need to go to a larger impeller in the supercharger and avoid exhaust powered superchargers and place the supercharger directly on the crankshaft. ”

            That’s exactly the point: it’s completely impossible for them to know that. Don’t forget that superchargers were even secret (well, many people knew that they existed but all internal components were highly secret!). Save for specialized engineers, they won’t even really understand how the thing works (they don’t have the formulas to link speed/pressure/temp and so on).

          10. By donald j johnson on

            My feeling is that after they try it as they are and have some bad accidents with parts flying Etc they will try a simpler method and they will probably come down to putting the impeller on the crankshaft because that is close to where the carburetor is or fuel injection if they have determined that and I believe that the P-40 had fuel injection so they should know what it is. Without accurate knowledge they will have to develop it and to develop it they will need to work with what they do have which is a working model on the P40. They are not stupid so they will know that things don’t always work exactly the same with copies they already know what kind of troubles they had with the steam engines and boilers. It will be a long slow development but would be even longer and slower if they don’t try. They love to try new things so they’re going to be trying lots of things

          11. By Lou Schirmer on

            They had been in use on aircraft & automobiles for 20 years by then, so not so secret. What WAS secret were the new designs, which as you say were highly developed & required high strength materials, fine tolerances & complex gearing. A simple, non-geared supercharger is possible however, either direct, belt (which with different sized pulleys is a simple “gearing”) or remote exhaust driven.

      3. By Steve Moore on

        I agree, things would need to move along for these engines to be developed. But let’s reflect on a few things.

        Bernie’s turned out some pretty impressive torpedoes. Lot of technical work there. Naval artillery and gas-operated machine guns require some talent as well.
        The RRP has 30 years of post-1914 industrial development building steam locomotives, monitors, Derby guns and Maxims, not to mention the Cantets.
        Reddy just captured 200 Japanese, and thousands of ‘yard’ Griks in Zanzibar. Bushman (aka Kurokawa) and Muriname built some pretty impressive planes, in less than 2 years.
        Even the Empire has an optics industry, where close tolerances are key.
        I’d consider several of the Destroyermen ‘seat-of-the-pants engineers’, not to mention the Canopus mechanic that came in with the prisoner ship.

        All in all, I think they’ve got a chance at knocking out a simple one-stage compressor, and build a curve to better models.

        Reply
  3. By Alexey Shiro on

    Just a fun thought… what if SHE get transferred?

    https://orig14.deviantart.net/e88d/f/2011/310/1/7/japanese_kawasaki_kx_03_flying_boat_by_kara_alvama-d4fae5h.png

    Overall length;162m, Span;180m, Height;35.4m, Wing area;1,150square meter,
    Gross weight;460ton, Range;18,520km, Payload;900 soldiers with normal equipments,
    Engines; Ne201 turbo prop engine(7,000hp + static thrust 900kg/each engine)×12(total 132,000hp),
    Ne330 jet engine×6(total equivalent 7,920hp), crews;24.

    Reply
      1. By Steve Moore on

        Is it just my screen being too wide and stretchy, or do the engines look just a LITTLE small?

        How about air freighting one of the mines down to the RRP and see if they can copy them? Still thinking about putting a cork up the Grik Empire’s collective bum. Or maybe giving the RRP a squadron or two of P-1C’s to copy & train on? Don’t really think the Alliance has 20 years to wait for the RRP to develop their own planes. They’re already copying Donaghey’s Nancy, why not build Nancys with double-row radials and P-1Cs?

        Reply
        1. Taylor AndersonsBy Taylor Andersons on

          The Cantets might already give the P-1s (at least) a run for their money. The Republic has had aviation for a while, just hasn’t developed it as fully as they “should” (from our and the Allies’ perspective) over the last decade or more. Same old story–with a twist. From their perspective, flying around where the Grik might see them might draw unwanted attention. The Nig Taak has had his hands tied until recently by a parsimonious and isolationist Senate.

          Reply
          1. By Alexey Shiro on

            Er… they came from 1914. In 1914, the heavier-than-air aviation was still considered more an oddity, than respected combat force. Especially by German Navy.

          2. By Matthieu on

            Stupid question: is there oil in south africa?

            Without they can produce planes but they can’t fly them.

          3. By Charles Simpson on

            Hmm, there are many captured British engineers and only SMS Amerika’s engineers. So why a German prototype? Perhaps the German engineer had a brother an aircraft engineer?

            Why no internal combustion land transport Trucks would be very useful?

          4. By Steve Moore on

            If Muriname comes in on the side of Esshk (perhaps presented with a choice of being an ally or being dinner), Cantets won’t be much good. Remember, the Japanese planes, like most 1930’s era planes, are built to operate from rough fields. I don’t think that Esshk is going to take too long to realize that the Alliance does not have the level of air support he saw in Madagascar and Zanzibar. Even a Clipper raid or two with incendiaries would take a chunk out of Grik troop concentrations. P1C’s and Nancys also have well-developed radio links.

    1. By Steve Moore on

      Transferred in from a world where hopefully the Japanese were US allies, as in the first war.

      Reply
  4. By Charles Simpson on

    How hard will it be to in jam Savoie’s rudder? See:

    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bretagne_Brassey%27s.png

    As you can see her sisters had a single centerline rudder COMPLETELY below the water line. Thus a dry dock likely needed her 544′ 7″ length 88.25 foot beam should fit Tarrakaan Island’s 100 by 800 foot well. Ugh were not the Island SPDs designed to take aboard the smaller carriers ie 850′ length 150′ beam?

    Reply
    1. By Alexey Shiro on

      For such limited repair, they may use cofferdam around her stern.

      Reply
    2. By Lou Schirmer on

      Charles, I’ve got some hires deck plans for the Bretagne class. Should I post them on the DD wiki?

      Reply
        1. By Lou Schirmer on

          Yes, that’s where I got them, but I can’t get to the site now for some reason.

          Reply
  5. By Joe Thorsky on

    “It’s not what happens, but how the leader sees what happens,
    that counts.”…
    “Books represent the accumulated knowledge and wisdom of the ages, available for pennies on the dollar. Books preserve the greatest thoughts, the greatest ideas, and the greatest insights of human experience.”…
    “And reading is one of the best, most time-tested avenues to leadership experience. If other people’s experiences is the best teacher, books are the best transmitter of that experience.”…
    From “Launching a Leadership Revolution”
    by Chris Brady and Orin Woodward

    A Speculative Inquiry
    Why was there only a LOT transfer and not a second
    corresponding GB-Commonwealth/Czarist Russian asset
    transfer event that could have simultaneously occurred as well?
    Is this the reason why the LOT is working and operating in
    the shadows and background? They always and constantly are
    fearfully looking behind themselves and over their shoulders
    in dread of something or someone from somewhere, somewhen?
    Isn’t now as good time as any for Taylor to introduce
    the “Dogs of War” into this no holds barred Katfight?
    A good “FIDO” could prove to be “Leigh Light” illuminative
    and indispensable to the Alliance. Also, satiating a craving
    of “Squid” seems to be both in/on order here.

    Legacy of Washington Naval Treaty
    “Article 22 of the 1930 Treaty of London relating to submarine warfare declared international law (the so-called “cruiser rules”) applied to submarines as well as to surface vessels. Also, unarmed merchant vessels which did not demonstrate “persistent refusal to stop…or active resistance to visit or search”[3] could not be sunk without the ships’ crews and passengers being first delivered to “a place of safety” (for which lifeboats did not qualify, except under particular circumstances).[4] The 1936 treaty confirmed Article 22 of the 1930 treaty remained in force, and “all others Powers [were invited] to express their assent to the rules embodied in this Article”.[5][6] This became known as the London Submarine Protocol, and over thirty-five nations eventually did subscribe to it, including the U.S., Britain, Germany, and Japan.[7] It was this Protocol which was used at the post war Nuremberg Trial of Karl Dönitz for ordering unrestricted submarine warfare. These regulations did not prohibit arming merchantmen,[8] but arming them, or having them report contact with submarines (or raiders), made them de facto naval auxiliaries and removed the protection of the cruiser rules.[9] This made restrictions on submarines effectively moot.[10]”….
    From

    “Churchill was right when he talked about “the proper
    application of overwhelming force.”…
    “Thus the key task for convoy escorts, whether surface or aerial,
    was to prevent enemy submarines from launching their torpedoes
    at the flock of merchantmen in the first place.
    The later introduction of acoustic or homing torpedoes, or of much more sophisticated U-Boats near the end of the war, did not alter that
    basic fact.”…

    “Among those many advances, four were described:”…
    Introduction of long range and heavily equipped bombers
    that could stay with the convoys all the way,…
    Development and mass production of centimetric radar,…
    The Hedgehog mortar and it’s derivatives the Squid and Limbo
    Weapons Systems,…
    Deployment of the hard hitting convoy support groups;
    Aka- Hunter Killer Task Forces built around Bogue Class
    escort carriers and new types of purpose built corvettes and
    frigates”.…
    From Engineers of Victory by Paul Kennedy
    Is this where Taylor’s next is going?

    Reply
    1. By Alexey Shiro on

      //Why was there only a LOT transfer and not a second
      corresponding GB-Commonwealth/Czarist Russian asset
      transfer event that could have simultaneously occurred as well?//

      Because transfer mechanism are clearly disinterested in politics.

      Reply
      1. By Joe Thorsky on

        Alexey
        Irrespective of the Politics involved.
        Can’t intimate that the event (it) was just
        another case of “Spontaneous Selection.”

        Reply
  6. By Justin on

    We know aluminum’s out of the question unless the Union finds a natural cryolite deposit… but what about synthetic cryolite?

    Aluminum oxide they can get from refining bauxite, hydrofluoric acid from fluorine and sulfur, and sodium hydroxide from electrolysis of basic table salt. They should probably interrogate Bradford once he gets back from Africa.

    Reply
    1. By donald j johnson on

      Maybe what they really need is to get a hold of that Handbook of chemistry and physics that was on the ship that just transferred along with an old radio amateur handbook just spark up the radio technology

      Reply
    2. By Alexey Shiro on

      I think, steel is more simple & viable solution for Alliance’s aircraft program than aluminium.

      P.S. Hovewer, with a lot of magnium & a few of aluminium (9% to be precise) you could have Elektron – quite efficient alloy.

      Reply
      1. By Lou Schirmer on

        Due to the scarcity of aluminum, even Elektron would have to be used sparingly. It could be used as a leading edge wing sheath, or where high strength & low weight are needed. The rest of the aircraft could be steel stringers & wing spars with plywood frames, wing ribs & fuselage & wing skins.

        Lets not forget that magnesium burns readily & can’t be extinguished. Several types of incendiary bombs were designed using Electron.

        Reply
        1. By Alexey Shiro on

          Yes, that’s the problem. On the other hands, considering that the average Alliance pilot, downed above sea is 100% doomed… I think, that Alliace could just use Japan philosophy “forget the durability, if the plane could not land on carrier it’s as good as destroyed”.

          Reply
        2. By Lou Schirmer on

          Here’s a thought. Some enterprising soul should come up with an inflatable raft attached to the pilots harness. That way, if they bail out over water, when they get near the water, they activate the CO2 cartridge to inflate the raft which stays attached to the harness, so it’s right there when they hit the water. They should be able to get into the raft before the first flashie gets there, unless they’re wounded. The raft could be made with thick material & have multiple air pockets in case of leaks or punctures. This would give the pilots at least some chance over water & nearby ships could pick them up. If I was a pilot there, I’d be giving this quite a bit of thought.

          Reply
          1. By Alexey Shiro on

            I’m afraid, it wouldn’t work against flashies. Let’s not forget, they have a tendency to bump even a boats… so inflatable raft would be only a very short-therm solution.

          2. By Lou Schirmer on

            True, but short term might be enough to get a boat to them if they bail out near a ship.

          3. By Charles Simpson on

            Remember in Crusade when the PBY inflated a raft, the flashies tore it toshreds before any one could get in.

      1. By Steve Moore on

        Wonder if the Leets gasket material could be formulated as a glue; seems to resist the moisture.

        Reply
    3. By Justin on

      Both excellent points, but Matt’s pointed out that steel’s usually too heavy for large aircraft, and that wood only works if you’ve got airplane glue that can resist the heat and Gs involved in dogfighting.

      What about nickel, beryllium or titanium?

      Reply
      1. By Lou Schirmer on

        Tube steel can be fairly light, if you use a thin gauge. They could put a bamboo core in it with resin glue to up its strength & durability.

        Forget Titanium. In the 1960s Lockheed had lots of problems with that making the SR-71. Nickel & beryllium are usually used in small amount to make alloys with other metals, like copper & steel.

        Reply
          1. By Alexey Shiro on

            Side note: despite a lot of urban legends, Ho.229 ISN’T “stealthy”. Her forms gave her a bit of radar reduction, but her steel frames under wooden skin are a real mess of corner reflectors.

          2. By Nestor on

            True, the intent of the Weimar brothers was mainly to meet RLM speed and performance requirements. Only long after the war they started to muse about possible stealth capabilities.

          3. By Alexey Shiro on

            Exactly. The stealth theory wasn’t even understood in 1940s. UK, Germany and USA tinkered with the idea of “radar-absorbing paint”, but without understanding of the theory of beam reflection and dispercion, it was only marginally useful.

      2. By Alexey Shiro on

        //Both excellent points, but Matt’s pointed out that steel’s usually too heavy for large aircraft, and that wood only works if you’ve got airplane glue that can resist the heat and Gs involved in dogfighting.//

        Well, the Soviet engineers were quite able to build steel planes in 1930s. In 1939, the “Stal-7” twin-engine plane (with all-steel hull) set a world speed record on 5000 km flight. She was capable of 450 km/h, could climb up to 10000 meters and could carry about 12 peoples or several tons of cargo. And her range was quite good, too.

        http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/cw1/stal7/stal7-1.gif

        If the Union would be able to build something like “Stal” series, they would have a really good medium bomber (for 1930s, of course).

        //What about nickel, beryllium or titanium?//

        They are costly… and the titanium is really hard to produce in sufficient quantites. As far as I knew, for quite a long time only USSR was able to produce enough titanium to use it even on submarine hulls.

        Reply
        1. By Justin on

          Go figure… say, a Stal-8 might work as a main fighter too.

          Reply
  7. By Lou Schirmer on

    I was curious to see what a P-1 would look like with an enclosed cockpit, so went & drew it.
    At the speeds they’re flying at, the pilot is essentially being asked to fly & fight a high performance aircraft while in a tornado. The enclosed cockpit would make things a bit easier for them. This is a modification of one of Taylors pictures from the Art section…back when you could save the full sized picture.

    http://loupy59.deviantart.com/art/P-1D-Design-Study-696621134

    Reply
  8. By Joe Thorsky on

    Lou-Guys

    If you’re fishing for the big fish don’t you
    need to attract them by tempestesting them with
    the smaller fish first.

    You’re are partially right in your assessments,
    but I was asking for a Taylored made Destroyermen’s
    aka specifically Silva’s answer/response to the
    growing submarine threat to Alliance shipping.
    A marriage of biology to technology would seepy be the ideal answer.

    There’s a strong possibly of Axis Submarine aircraft carriers
    being part of the Lot’s sub fleet?
    As reference see- I-400-class submarine

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-400-class_submarine>

    Reply

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