3,488 COMMENTS :

  1. By Steve Moore on

    Picked up another good read, “Neptune’s Inferno” by James Hornfischer (also wrote ‘Last Stand of the Tin Can Sailors). Lot of description of Japanese torpedo attacks. FYI, Taylor, he lives in Austin and graduated from UT in Austin.

    Reply
  2. By Paul Smith on

    O.K., this is another stupid/ignorant question. When machining the breach on an interrupted thread breach, is the breach & plug threaded first and then the interrupts, or the other way around?

    Reply
    1. By William Curry on

      I would would do the threads first and then the interrupts. But having never done it, I can’t swear that’s the ways it’s done. It would be easier to machine an interrupt across the thread than to machine the thread across the interrupt. The interrupt is a straight cut and the thread is an angled cut.

      Reply
      1. By donald j johnson on

        Cutting a thread across an interrupt will cut or break your tool almost every time so I would have to say that doing the thread first and then cutting the interrupt would be the only way to do it

        Reply
  3. By Charles Simpson on

    So USS Walker is back in the shop with “Chewed up studs” you can hardly get a nail in. So when are they going to do, retire the old girl and turn her into a war monument? When the Grik are defeated will the Lemurians support the War in the East? What will happen with General Halick? Will the League of Tripoli become more active in the war as a belligerent? Will Sovoie be repaired in time for this war? What will happen in India, will the Czechs form their own government, or join the Union? Will the Swamp Lizards in Chill-chaap remain strangers? These are some of the questions left for the next book(s) to answer.

    Reply
  4. By Generalstarwars333 on

    Well, I’m back, and hot dang the allies have a battleship now. Of course, it’s a heavily damaged one that is also beached, but they’ve still got it and can at least salvage it for the steel and guns. The new cruiser sounds great too. Anyway, I liked the introduction of the tanks. So here’s my opinion: The Republic seems a bit better suited to making them than the allies, since the allies are focusing most of their steel on ships. So send the Republic the plans and some engineers and crewmen to give them assistance and get their tank production up and running.

    Reply
    1. By donald j johnson on

      Well now the worst is over. Taylor got som noce thongs in the next books. And we are gonna try and turn the general into silva’s gunsmith!

      Reply
      1. Taylor AndersonsBy Taylor Andersons on

        I don’t THINK there are ‘thongs’ in the next book, Don. Sorry to disappoint you! 😉 And it’s good to have you back, General! Alexey’s right. SDs were pretty tough. The only thing we have left to compare a Bretagne to is USS Texas, and don’t forget they nuked her sister New York TWICE and couldn’t sink her. Had to tow her off and pound her down the old fashioned way. (True, the nukes were disappointing against ships, but they did do for the Nagato.

        Reply
        1. By Justin on

          Ah yes, Operation Crossroads – one of the biggest, most futile dick-waving contests in military history. Lost a lot of good museum ships that day…

          Reply
          1. By Alexey Shiro on

            I disagree. It was very important excercise, to actually estimate the influence of nuclear weapon on naval warfare, and how to protect ships from its effects. Both USSR and UK have similar tests too, albeit not on such scale.

          2. By Lou Schirmer on

            Plus all of those “museum” ships were headed for the scrap yard anyway. For example, USS Enterprise, arguably one of the most famous & veteran of most of the pacific war battles (I think she had the most battle stars of any US warship before or since), one of only two prewar carriers to survive (USS Saratoga kept stumbling across torpedoes & mines most of the war & sitting in repair yards), was scrapped. If she wasn’t preserved, none of the rest had a chance.

          3. By Justin on

            The problem with Big E was that none of the fundraising groups collected enough to buy her off the Navy – whereas both New York and Pennsylvania had their home states offering their treasuries, but got shot down by JTF-1 anyway. And I can’t think of a reason to bomb Nagato or Eugen other than pure spite.

          4. By Alexey Shiro on

            //And I can’t think of a reason to bomb Nagato or Eugen other than pure spite.//

            Er… they were the closest thing to fast modern warships that Navy could spare. “Nagato” was an example of large, fast battleship – the only one, that Navy could spare. The “Eugen” was an example of large modern heavy cruiser. They were – along with “Saratoga” – arguably the most valuable ships during tests.

            And frankly, what else could Navy do with them? Scrap them? “Nagato” was old, worn-out, her machinery and systems degraded due to the lack of maintenance in 1945-1946. “Eugen” was inferior to USN’s heavy cruisers in almost every aspect. They were non-standard ships and required spare parts which USN could not obtain at all (because they weren’t produced anymore). There were no particular reason to hold them in the reserve.

          5. By Matt White on

            //And frankly, what else could Navy do with them? Scrap them? //

            Exactly. This isn’t the age of sail when you could capture a sailing ship, replace its cannons and hoist a new flag. Steel warships are really complicated and specialized. There’s no way they had any future. In both world wars the only fate that prize ships had were to be studied and then scrapped or sunk as targets. Eugen actually got off easy since she capsized herself on a shallow reef while being towed and now makes a cool dive spot.

          6. By Paul Smith on

            My uncle served on the Saratoga, We had a few relics from her. Isn’t she listed as one of the most dangerous dives?

        2. By Lou Schirmer on

          //Well now the worst is over. Taylor got som noce thongs in the next books. //
          Apparently the worst isn’t over quite yet. :)
          We could have the guys (& gals) in Dixie cups & thongs, swabbing the decks, singing obscene shanties for the cover of the next book. It’d be kind of a Village People theme! I’m so excited, I can’t wait to see it! Where’s Nestor? He needs to get drawing.

          Reply
          1. By Lou Schirmer on

            I like nice thongs…preferably on young ladies….or off young ladies.

            I think Matthieu needs to show me where that door is now.

          2. By Steve Moore on

            What we need is some Frank Frasetta-style renderings, maybe a 2018 calendar? Cover art like that would probably get the book picked up.

          3. By Steve Moore on

            damn keyboard, can’t type with band-aids on my fingers. Frazetta, not Frasetta or Farsetta…

          4. By Alexey Shiro on

            // like nice thongs…preferably on young ladies….or off young ladies.//

            Believe me, on/off young, lean dudes they look good, too)))

          5. By Charles Simpson on

            However, Alexey, thongs on the elderly obese Don’t look good at all.

    2. By Alexey Shiro on

      She is not heavily damaged. For Bretange-class, her damage is pretty moderate, those gals were designedd to survive more.

      Reply
      1. By Lou Schirmer on

        I agree, the damage above the waterline is superficial except for the messed up barrel on “A” turret. The main damage will be from the two torpedoes aft, with damage to the rudder & port shafts & screws at least & with light armor in that area, flooding & possible engine damage.

        Reply
        1. By Generalstarwars333 on

          So, basically, the Allies can repair the damage relatively easily(or at least get it to the point of the ship not actively sinking or something from it) and use the ship themselves?

          Reply
          1. By Charles Simpson on

            I doubt they have thee machinery built to repair a Battleship. Remember back in Crusade Sandra Tucker discussing that INJ Amagi was more difficult to repair due to size.

            PS Send Taylor a message with your first name, he wanted to add you in the introduction of the next book of people on this site helping out with our discussions, but is afraid ‘starwars’ is under Copyright and can’t be used in the Book.

          2. By Justin on

            That’s likely because Amagi only had the Grik to work with; the Republic and Union would naturally have the skilled labour and modern facilities needed to tune up Savoie.

          3. By Lou Schirmer on

            Also Amagi was actually sunk, with major damage from the mine & torpedoes, whereas Savoie’s rudder was jammed, so she went aground. Depending on how bad the damage was, she might be able to make Baalkpan under her own power, if they could straighten the rudder. The end of DD however said they were going to get Salissa to tow her. She may be able to help the tow with one or two of her screws though. We’ll have to see.

          4. By Alexey Shiro on

            Charles, they routinely repaired Home-class carriers, which are bigger than “Savoie”, and now Alliance have concrete drydocks, capable of lifting such ship.

      2. By Paul Smith on

        this maybe a stupid question, I’ve no military service at all, but are instruction manuals kept on ships like the savoie? I could understand for training purposes for different systems such as sonar/radar, weapons systems. The biggest problem would be translation of 100,000 documents/warning labels/gauges, and so on.

        Reply
        1. By Lou Schirmer on

          Probably, modern ships & militaries certainly do. They’d have operations manuals & repair manuals for just about everything, not just the major systems. On the other claw, the LOT may have removed or destroyed them all at the same time they removed the fire control systems.
          When the Union is repairing Savoie, they may have to go with a copy of Amagi’s main battery directors & fire control computer.

          Reply
          1. By donald j johnson on

            There are no such things as stupid questions. Sometimes you get stupid answers because someone feels sarcastic about your question but the questions are always good considering what your individual knowledge is. Insufficient knowledge leads to questions. Excessive knowledge leads to come sarcasm simply because the idiot what’s to be an idiot when he answers your question so we learn to ignore those kinds of answers if we recognize them as sarcastic.

        2. By Steve Moore on

          Unless you already know the answer and are just asking to be a wiseass, all questions are uninformed, for you are seeking information. Even if it could be worked out to a logical conclusion, logical conclusions are not always correct. This forum is for asking away.

          Now the Nimitz and Burkes are another story. All the manuals would probably be electronic, and they’d run out of paper before they could print them all.

          Reply
          1. By Steve Moore on

            However, some questions, like about rockets, do annoy people 😉

    3. By Steve Moore on

      First have them some airboats for the Zambezi! Single row radials or W/G, twin .30 cal up front (and maybe a mortar, or a single M2).

      Reply
  5. By Paul Smith on

    Did they
    9any of the destroyermen) know about the bauxite deposits in Australia? they could start development of those resources. Maybe Courtney would have some knowledge of this.

    Reply
    1. By Paul Smith on

      Sorry, I’m a one handed typist, now. On a laptop to boot!

      Reply
    2. By Justin on

      Don’t sweat it – you’re legible, after all!

      The problem isn’t really getting at the bauxite, it’s converting it. First they have to purify it with sodium lye to get aluminum oxide – easy enough – but refining that into actual aluminum requires cryolite… and the only known deposit’s in Greenland.
      Whether or not they can figure out synthetic cryolite (or are better off going with steel-plated aircraft) is an ongoing point of contention.

      Reply
      1. By William Curry on

        Making Aluminum requires prodigious amounts of electricity. Australia has a lot of coal, not much hydroelectric capacity, so large coal fired steam stations.

        Reply
        1. By Matt White on

          Cryolite is going to be a bigger problem than getting the electricity. Steam Engines and power plants are no problem. Cryolite on the other hand is.

          Reply
      2. By Paul Smith on

        It makes me wonder, how would a modern ship (Arleigh Burke or Nimitz class) do in such a situation? Would they have as broad a knowledge base as Walker, for older, easier(relatively) to make technology.

        Reply
        1. Taylor AndersonsBy Taylor Andersons on

          Good multi-layered question, but the answers are a little different for both classes and roles described. I would think that a Nimitz would immediately win any battle or war it came to in “my” world, though it couldn’t conquer any territory, of course. And I would hope that its much larger crew might still have as broad a knowledge base as Walker’s, plus a lot more modern, nasty tech. Even without battle damage, maintaining the ship and supplying its armaments/electronics/equipment would be infinitely more difficult and time consuming however, but I think it COULD be kept operational to some degree, at least, for some time. I expect the planes would have a much shorter shelf life, and maintenance issues for them would grow insurmountable much quicker.
          Re the Arleigh Burke, I’m afraid the PRACTICAL knowledge base would be much narrower, the same maintenance issues would apply, as well as an instantaneous and possibly insurmountable (within a reasonable, practical timeframe) fuel crisis might render her useless. Her gas turbines can burn a lot of different things, but I don’t honestly know if that included Borneo oil, regardless how light or sweet. I’d think it would have to be much cleaner than what Walker thrives on since the exhaust goes through the turbines. In any event, again, if she showed up for a battle, even a fleet action, she’d win it, but once her ordnance was exhausted, it simply couldn’t be replaced. And if she WAS damaged . . . It would be infinitely more difficult/time consuming (even impossible, depending on what was damaged) to put her back in service. The best analog the Allies have is their rapidly dwindling P-40Es. They’ve been hanger queens to a large extent, though game changers at times. And they’ve been able to keep some in the air because they cannibalized others. No such option exists for the AB.

          Reply
          1. By Lou Schirmer on

            They both (Burke & Nimitz) may remain mostly combat effective for longer than most may think, especially the carrier. Her machine shops are very comprehensive, & my experience with navy enlisted is they can be quite creative when dealing with unusual problems. The carriers main issue would be the aircraft, as you say, but they could extend their availability several ways, by restricting flights to essential combat missions only, hacking the Full Authority Digital Engine Control (FADEC) engine systems to reduce operating stress (derating the engine & reducing allowable turbine temps). There are also spares aboard, but the priority would be fuel & establishing machine shops at a land base to try & build replacement turbine parts & bearings.
            Yes, I realize they can’t replace the high tech materials & the Bladed Rings (BLINGS) the current generation of high performance engine use would be impossible. But, they could try for a lower tech steel ring & blade setup, similar to the early 50s engines. To use those, they would have to derate the engines further, so may wind up with only 50-60% power, but they would still have afterburners to boost power. Iran kept the Shah’s F-14s flying & fighting for 20 years after we cutoff maintenance & spares support, & they’re not noted for their high tech savvy.
            As far as fuel goes, jet fuel is kerosene, so if they can get a well sunk somewhere like our heroes, they can get jet fuel. Kerosene is actually easier to make than avgas. The P-40s were having problems with low octane gas in their high performance engines, but kerosene comes out the tap usable. You need to filter it of course. Kerosene & gas are distillates of crude oil & fractional distillation is what our heroes are using to get gas. They’re probably burning off or disposing a lot of other usable stuff as well. The Burke class & aircraft both burn kerosene, so that solves the fuel issue, if they can get it done in time. Rationing & drastic fuel conservation would be mandatory.
            As far as ammo goes, once the missiles are expended, they may as well remove those systems from the ships, since there’s no way in hell they can reproduce those. The carrier may be able to cobble something up in 10-15 years or so though. Gun systems are different. Just as the DDmen saved the 4″ & MG brass for reloading, so to can the DD & CVN. They’d have to start with black powder, but the DDs 5″ gun would probably work. The ballistics would be completely different, to they would have to reprogram the fire control to account for it. The 20mm & 30mm ammo would be harder, but they fire electrically, so the Gatling’s would cycle, but jams from residue buildup would be more frequent. They’d have to be carefully cleaned every time they fire. Given time, they could get smokeless propellants into production, or given the resources of the CVN, they might skip black powder altogether.

          2. By Alexey Shiro on

            Well, the level of 1940s USA in theory is enough, to replace the “Standard” missiles with heavily downgraded analogues, capable to crudely interract with AN/SPG-62 radars. After all, the “Bumblebee” program (which gave us RIM-2 “Talos”) was started in 1946.

            So, in the scenario “modern destroyer came to World War II”, it would be at least possible in a few years to restore – partially – her missile capabilities. Of course, such ramjet-prowered liquid-fueled missiles would be pretty far from “Standard” analogues, but guided by Aegis, they still would do a pretty good job.

          3. By Alexey Shiro on

            // Iran kept the Shah’s F-14s flying & fighting for 20 years after we cutoff maintenance & spares support, & they’re not noted for their high tech savvy.//

            Actually, the Iranians are pretty good in high-tech. Their aircraft and missile programs are quite advanced for small isolated nation (MUCH better than North Korean, I may say)

          4. By Justin on

            Iran’s got a friggin’ robotics program right now. If I had to guess which Middle Eastern country’ll reach the Moon first, I’d bet on the Persians.

          5. By Lou Schirmer on

            True now, but at the time, they had a very steep learning curve inre. maintenance & tech to over come. You have to give them credit where credit is due, they are now one of the few middle east nations that are technologically capable. Most of them rely heavily on foreign techs for maintenance & technology.

          6. By William Curry on

            They burn Naval Special Distillate. Which essentially #2 fuel oil, not Kerosine (the official API spelling). It’s used in boiler burners, diesels and gas turbines, stationary, marine and aircraft. The older ships burned Bunker C, also called #6 fuel oil or Naval Special Fuel oil. It’s a residual fuel, the stuff that is left after all the distillates are removed in the distillation tower. The only thing left after #6 is asphalt. If you let #6 cool, it turns to something resembling asphalt. #6 has to be heated to pump it and burn it. (240 F)

          7. By Lou Schirmer on

            Thanks for the info, I thought all gas turbines burned kerosene or a kerosene, naphtha blend (Jet-A or Jet-B) like most aircraft turbines do. I knew they could burn diesel & gas, but didn’t realize naval & marine versions ran oil. Is #2 fuel oil a light fuel oil, like motor oil?

          8. By William Curry on

            #2 has a higher API gravity than kerosine and a good bit less than #6. It’s thinner than most motor oil. It’s sometimes referred to as “off road diesel” We used to run the same stuff in our stationary diesels that we ran in the boilers. Most of the fossil fueled ships in the navy that burned NSFO were converted at some point to burn NSD. Converting a heavy oil boiler to burn light oil is very easy. Kerosine has a higher vapor pressure than #2, that why it’s used in vaporizing pot burners in oil circulators and portable home heating units. #2 has to be atomized to burn either with pressure, compressed air or steam. Kerosine will usually vaporize on it’s own unless it very cold. Kerosine is usually considered more of a fire hazard than #2 for this reason. Some industrial and marine engines use to burn #4 which has to be heated to burn. The reason so many engines and boilers used to use heavy oil is because it was cheaper than distillate.

          9. By Paul Smith on

            I had a co-worker at my last job, ex-submariner los angeles class, who stated the navy had plans and reactors for nuking the Iowa’s in an emergency. Imagine the increased magazine capacity for primary & secondary weapons with the reduced bunkerage. Now he may have been pulling my leg, or spreading gossip, believe what you want. I wonder how much room the two reactors and related shielding take up & how much they weigh compared to the eight boilers & turbines the bb’s have.

          10. By Alexey Shiro on

            // I had a co-worker at my last job, ex-submariner los angeles class, who stated the navy had plans and reactors for nuking the Iowa’s in an emergency. Imagine the increased magazine capacity for primary & secondary weapons with the reduced bunkerage. Now he may have been pulling my leg, or spreading gossip, believe what you want. I wonder how much room the two reactors and related shielding take up & how much they weigh compared to the eight boilers & turbines the bb’s have.
            //

            The main question, why, for Pete’s sake, USN may want to do that? It would took years to rip the old powerplant off “Iowa”‘s and put reactors inside. And it wouldn’t gave such significant weight reductions, because “Iowa”‘s main tanks are in her anti-torpedo belt.

            Not to mention, that it would require pulling the highly valuable reactor specialists from more important units, like reserve nuclear submarines.

            Frankly, it would make much more sence to put reactors on a few “Arleigh Burke”‘s or “Ticonderoga”‘s, so they could keep up with nuclear carriers in case of Really Fast Transoceanic Run.

          11. By Lou Schirmer on

            If I was going to swap out the engines, I’d go with a mix of diesel & gas turbines. The diesels for cruise, harbor entry/exit etc., & the gas turbines adding power when you really need to get moving. They could both run on the same fuel. Plus the gas turbines could provide lots of electrical power, if they wanted to add directed energy weapons to her.

  6. By Lou Schirmer on

    Speaking of DDs, I wonder what’s going on with the current US Pacific fleet? Four mishaps this year, two fatal ones in the last month? How does a fast, maneuverable Burke class DD get rammed by a container ship or an oil tanker? It’s not like they can’t see them coming. Yes it was in the dark, but these are Aegis DDs, they have a sensor suite that can detect a gnat farting at 20 miles. Hopefully the courts martials for the accidents with fatalities are for negligent homicide for the senior bridge officer on duty at the time.

    Reply
    1. By Matt White on

      Discussion I’ve seen elsewhere from people who know the trade like subsim say it’s neglegence and poor seamanship. There have been some paranoid types who claim the systems were hacked but even if that were the case you should always have lookouts.a big merchant ship is hard to miss and wthin visual range they would have had plenty of time to yeild.The bridge crew weren’t doing their job.

      Reply
    2. By donald johnson on

      Even if the systems were hacked the visual lookouts would see anything that was around in plenty of time unless they were not doing their job. The only thing preventing the visual lookouts would be fog which was not occurring at the time.
      The visual lookouts obviously were NOT doing their jobs or were not assigned to do their jobs on either ship. both ships are at fault and both captains and ood should be held to blame, Not the admiral as has been done. The sailors will do their jobs if assigned to do so. Yes the radar should be able to warn but ultimatly it is captain, OOD, NCOIC man on watch.

      Reply
  7. By donald j johnson on

    While I was at Taylor we had a good long discussion about the books. He did not tell me anything that has not told us directly but he did infer on several occasions in such a manner about possibilities that I would feel bad were I to release of what he said because it might ruin the book for some of us. He did offer to tell me the name of the next book but I refused because I want the surprise as much as you guys do. We had a long discussion about Halik and Don Fernando and their potential possibilities. It was a really fun discussion.

    Reply
  8. By Justin on

    Going on the throwaway reference to “Gold Platers” back in Deadly Shores, you think we’ll see them laid down right after the two Walker-class DDs, or are there another two in the queue (four in total) before we get there?

    And if/when that happens, are they going to go with Farraguts, or try a Porter? Hoping for the latter, if only because the Farras weren’t exactly stable.

    Reply
    1. By Lou Schirmer on

      I think they said there were two more improved Walker types under construction, so four total, at least.

      If it was me. I’d go for a Farragut class DD, but with better stability, or a Mahan class. Only about 200 tons larger, but with a rounded stern for better turn radius & less tendency to dig in when going to full power. With the raised forecastle, they’re better sea boats (when stable). They may even be confident enough to try low pressure (400psi) superheated steam & economizers to increase power & range. A Porter class isn’t really necessary since the CL can take it’s role.

      Reply
      1. By Matt White on

        Why not go further and make a Benson or Sims class? They would have known about them, the only really difficult part would be getting enough horsepower to match the speed of the real deal and of course no RADAR.

        Reply
        1. By Justin on

          Could be, depending on how little of a departure from the Farraguts (which the two ex-Gold crewmen served on) they are. The crew so far seems to be going with “stuff we’re already familiar with, but slightly better.”

          Reply
          1. By Matt White on

            I’m just saying that for most of the day classes the Navy built leading up to the war they were incremental improvements rather than major innovations. So the difference between one 1930’s class and another isn’t that big really. The next big jump came with the Fletcher’s and a lot of that was all of the pieces coming together to make a truly excellent class.

        2. By Alexey Shiro on

          Er… Forget the radar – the main thing abous “Sims”-class is Mark 37 Fire Control System. Which was state of art, cutting edge in electromechanic of 1930s. With all respect, but such system is FAR beyond the Alliance current capabilities.

          Reply
          1. By Paul Smith on

            Was the Hidoiame’s fire control enough better than Walker’s to warrant adapting it to other classes of navy clan ships? I would think They would look for any edge that would be effective. I admit to having zero knowledge of technical problems with converting mechanical/electro-mechanical fire control systems to different calibers.

      2. By Lou Schirmer on

        They may not go with ANY Gold Plater class. They may go with large improvements of the current four pipers. Bigger, to increase range, load carrying capacity & create more topside space for a better weapon arrangement. Go to a full broadside main battery. Enclose the bridge. Experiment with low pressure super heated steam to increase power without a large increase in turbine/boiler size. They can do all this relatively easier than creating an all new design from scratch & it will also keep the 4-piper brand recognition.

        Reply
        1. By Steve Moore on

          Just curious; would an increase in the beam improve seakeeping behavior, or just lower the hull speed? Seems to me that might add a little more room below deck for additional gun crew, both 25mm AA and 4″50.

          I still like some of Lou’s smaller designs, the DE and TB-2. Quantity would add a lot of shipbuilding experience by expanding the number of shipyards building, if they’re going to be looking at smaller qualitative changes. Especially if they’re going to have to control choke points at the Cape and in Costa Rica. Controlling any expansion into the Suez would need to rely more on land-based air, whether the LOT dug a canal or built a railway to transport MAS boats.

          Reply
        2. By Alexey Shiro on

          Well, there was those 1918s destroyer leader design…

          Reply
        3. By Justin on

          Assuming she’s large enough for a Gold Plater-type layout AND four funnels, she’s probably not going to have a flush deck. The four stackers were known to be wet in OTL’s high seas as it is – in a Strakka? Nope, the Americans’ll want a forecastle.

          Reply
          1. By Matt White on

            I’m sorry what is a Gold Plater class? Is this slang for something? I tried google-fu but all it got me were gaudy modified Mercedes.

          2. By Alexey Shiro on

            Well, since they were able to examine two Japanese warships, we might expect Japan-style curved deck…

          3. By Justin on

            Try “goldplater,” one word. The Farraguts were larger and roomier than the Clemsons, which led old-timers to mock them for their “over-lavish facilities” – hence goldplater. The nickname more or less covers all the pre-Fletcher classes.

            It got mentioned literally one time back in Deadly Shores, but it’s been causing speculation ever since.

          4. By Matt White on

            //Try “goldplater,” one word. The Farraguts were larger and roomier than the Clemsons, which led old-timers to mock them for their “over-lavish facilities” – hence goldplater. The nickname more or less covers all the pre-Fletcher classes.//

            Copy that. I wasn’t familiar with the slang term. I remember a Farragut being mentioned in the book way back.

            //Er… Forget the radar – the main thing abous “Sims”-class is Mark 37 Fire Control System. Which was state of art, cutting edge in electromechanic of 1930s. With all respect, but such system is FAR beyond the Alliance current capabilities.//

            Point taken but lacking the FC does not preclude making a facsimile of the class anyways. Walker’s FC seems totally acceptable for the time being and likely will be for anything smaller than a heavy cruiser. Hidioame also had modern FC at least for a non-RADAR assisted model, and that would be helpful for development as well but I don’t see why a copy of Walker’s recalibrated for 5inchers wouldn’t work especially when that’s exactly what they are doing for the Cruiser.

          5. By Lou Schirmer on

            The CLs directors are copies of Amagis 5.5″ directors, so the fire control maybe be also.

          6. By Justin on

            Well, they don’t have 5″ guns – closest they’ve got is 4.7″ and 5.5″. The Union might design a completely new 5″/50, but I’d put ten bucks on them going with 4″ or 4.7″.

            //Walker’s FC seems totally acceptable for the time being and likely will be for anything smaller than a heavy cruiser. //

            Say, what would Baalkpan do for a CA’s fire control anyhow?

          7. By Lou Schirmer on

            Probably use the 5.5″ directors & fire control, but calibrated for the ballistics of whatever the main armament turns out to be. An 8″ guns range is greater than a 5.5″ or 6″, but they should be able to recalibrate the FC to handle it. If the theoretical CA turns out to be a BC however, I’d say they’d go with a copy of Amagi’s main battery directors & fire control, since the range gets considerably longer with the heavier guns.

  9. By Matt White on

    A while back I proposed using Walker’s old 3inch gun as the basis for new modern field piece as well as using it to upgrade the steam ships we have to give them a longer ranged and more effective AA option as well.

    It probably isn’t practical to do it now but I think Letts needs to take a hard look at standardizing the Union’s arsenal. Currently for small arms we have 30-06, 30 army, 45 acp, 50bmg, the 50-80 I think for the Silva’s and various mine’s, balls and buck cartridges for the Union, Imperial and Dominion muzzle loaders in service. That doesn’t include various oddities floating around like the 45lc SAA, the handful of Japanese weapons likely around and the Czech’s Mosins.

    Don’t get me started on naval and field artillery. It’s a mess of various muzzle loading cannons, the 4 inchers on the wickes boats, the 25mm AA gun, 3inch DP gun, the Japanese 4.7inch gun, Amagi’s 10 inch rifle on Big Sal, the (I think) 5 inch guns on Santy Cat and the huge wrench that is Savoie with it’s random weird French calibers.

    This is a logistical nightmare. Not only is vital production capacity wasted on obsolete munitions but prescious transport space is taken up by an inefficient mix match of ammunition. I’m surprised ammo shortages aren’t a bigger problem. That likely has more to do with the fact that the skipper has kept most recent engagements to short and brutal affairs than drawn out slogs. This will be a problem for soffeshk though. Once the balloon goes up they are going to have a hard time keeping the guns fed after the first day or so.

    Things went well against Halik but the army had a far more homogeneous setup then. The trapdoors only came into play at the end and aside from a few special cases everyone else had muzzle loaders. Now that isn’t the case.

    I’m not saying we need to rush out half baked m1903s from Balkpan right now but maybe a 30-06 version of the trapdoors should be made. It would need a new receiver and barrel so it won’t be a conversion like the allin-silvas were but that can allow us to push some of those down to the units still with muzzle loaders and completely remove the muzzle loader from the logistics train in the west.

    Reply
    1. By Justin on

      //A while back I proposed using Walker’s old 3inch gun as the basis for new modern field piece as well as using it to upgrade the steam ships we have to give them a longer ranged and more effective AA option as well. //

      Sounds good – if they can get its muzzle velocity high enough, they could use the 3″ as an AT piece as well!

      //It probably isn’t practical to do it now but I think Letts needs to take a hard look at standardizing the Union’s arsenal. Currently for small arms we have 30-06, 30 army, 45 acp, 50bmg, the 50-80 I think for the Silva’s and various mine’s, balls and buck cartridges for the Union, Imperial and Dominion muzzle loaders in service. That doesn’t include various oddities floating around like the 45lc SAA, the handful of Japanese weapons likely around and the Czech’s Mosins.//

      I believe that’s part of the reason why the M14 was created – too many different small arms (M1 Garand, M1 Carbine, BAR, Thmpson, Grease Gun) which needed to be replaced with one standard rifle. Definitely a priority long-term project with all the Schizo Tech piling up.

      Reply
    2. By William Curry on

      A Trapdoor will probably not take the pressure of a 30-06 cartridge.

      Reply
      1. By Justin on

        Don’t suppose they could rechamber the single-shot Mausers for 7.62?

        Reply
        1. By Matt White on

          Unlikely. If they are based on the Mauser 1871, which it seems they are, they won’t have a strong enough action. The 1871 was a rear locking design that also used the bolt handle as a safety lug. Better than the Dreseye it replaced but not in a large way in terms of pressure. I’m honestly surprised the republic hasn’t copied the M98, the crew of the Amerika would have had them onboard and if they can make Maxim’s they can make Mauser 98s. It’s also far superior to the 1871 and arguably the best bolt action design. Remember, the M1903 is a rip-off of the M98. Really the only people who didn’t use the M98 were the British, Russians, Austro-Hungarians and Italians. And both the Austrians and Hungarians ended up using Mauser type rifles eventually.

          I got on a tangent again. Anyways rear locking designs are generally not good for high pressure cartridges like 30-06 and 8mm, there are some exceptions. The Lee Enfield does fine in 303 although my friend Othais describes it as “the most un 30 caliber, 30 caliber ever made.” So it’s a bit lower on power and pressure than what we are talking about. To reliably handle high powered cartridges you want front locking lugs. They have several advantages, in this case it’s that they put less stress on the bolt when firing and add greater overall strength because they engage where the receiver is thickest, at the throat. The Austrians learned this the hard way in WW1 when they started issuing older straight pull mannlichers to the front line. The older desgns used a simple wedge lock mechanism on the bottom of the bolt towards the rear and was designed for a lower power, earlier version of their cartridge. Soldiers found that after firng the modern ammunition which was loaded hotter the bolt and receiver would start to warp. Not in a dangerous way but enough to make working the action more and more difficult. They resorted to kicking the bolt open which exacerbated the issue. Soon enough the rifles were unusable.

          Converting the trapdoor allin-silva design to 30-06 shouldn’t be too hard. Modern tradoor reproductions have no problem firing modern high pressure loads. The design is sound. It would still need to be a new build receiver though because dimensionally the 50-80 ones in service are just too different.

          The Union shouldnt have any problem making M1903s now. They can make 1911s, aircraft engines, M2 and M1919 Browning’s already. It won’t happen overnight though. In William Hallahan’s book Mifire (I highly recommend it btw) he goes into detail about the issues that Springfield had with getting good production numbers with the 1903. Even with the technical data package fleshed out it took a lot of work to make the assembly line efficient. The Union doesn’t have the data package. What they do have is a decent number of examples and a growing base of trained and experienced gunsmiths. It’s one thing to build a working prototype. It’s another to build something production ready and have the assembly pipeline good to go. I’d say it’s one of the major reasons we haven’t seen domestic 1903s yet. Still I think having them and having them as soon as possible is going to ease a lot of logistical pains on the army. The 50-80s can be sent east where they are still relevant and we can move to having one caliber for an infantry rifle for each theater. 30-06 for west and 50-80 for east. If all exsting 50-80 production went east the only way they would ever have ammunition supply issues is if they got too far ahead or cut off from the supply train.

          Reply
          1. By William Curry on

            Nobody making Trapdoors today recommends for pressures exceeding the 28,000 psi SAAMI/CIP pressure spec. Using Ruger #1 pressure in a modern trapdoor will probably wreck the action. Rolling Blocks of any vintage is not recommended for pressures higher than the low 40,000 psi range. Rolling Block also have problems handing long cartridges. A 45-70 with a 500 grain bullet is about as long a cartridge they will handle without difficulty. The advantage of turn bolt rifles over straight pull and most single shot rifles is the powerful camming action during the initial extraction, which is helpful with sticky or dirty cases. The Lee-Enfield action tends to get springy with pressures exceeding around 45,000 psi or so. The overly long chambers don’t help. But then the British weren’t worried about reloading the cases. The #4 is stronger than the #1. It will take 7.62×51 pressures. There was one version of the 31 made in India that used alloy steel for the receiver and bolt that was safely chambered for the 7.62×51 ctg.

      2. By Matt White on

        I think it could if done right. Modern 45-70 rifles can take chamber pressures in the same realm as 30-06. There would probably need to be some redesign work but since these are new build actions that isn’t as big of a deal. If we wanted the ultimate single shot we would use the rolling block as a base. Those things can figuratively take a nuke going off in the chamber. Honestly I’m surprised that the Union has stuck with the trapdoor for so long. It makes sense as an easy way to upgrade muzzle loaders but requires extra work to be ready for smokeless. The rolling block was strong enough to take smokeless with little to no modification. The smart move in hindsight would be to make conversion kits in the short term as trapdoors but new production as rolling blocks since those would be born smokeless ready. Then you could more easily transition the infantry to smokeless as the machiengun production came online and wouldn’t have to waste time producing both black powder and smokeless cartridges.

        Reply
        1. By donald j johnson on

          If you’re going to make a modification you want the final to be the same as your production so making a rolling Block as a kit to fix something and then making the actual production something else is going to put a crimp in any manufacturing business because now you have to make two different parts and that at their stage is too dangerous you want the same Parts in both places

          Reply
        2. By Lou Schirmer on

          //Honestly I’m surprised that the Union has stuck with the trapdoor for so long.//

          It’s only been in use for about a year maybe a year & a half, so not that long. Think about the timeline so far, for the first year they were using spears & shields, then the next year the muzzle loaders came into production, a year after that they had the Allen-Silva’s, then came the MG copies as support weapons. What they’ve needed was rapid production of tested existing weapons to be able to contain the Grik hordes. Springfield reproductions are probably in the works, but for now against the Grik, the standard 50-80’s in large numbers are what they need. Coupled with artillery & their machine guns, they’ll do until the new stuff is tested, reliable & in production in numbers. Even if they already have them in production, it’s going to be a while before they have enough to issue to the troops in large quantities. The first ones will probably go to the raider units.

          Reply
        3. By Charles Simpson on

          There are three reasons for keeping the Allen/Silva.

          1) it is less complex to machine, and thus more can be produced with the same time. This allows a larger percentage of the troops being armed.

          2) the supply of modern smokeless powder is low compared to black powder.

          3) the large .50 and slow bullet of the Allen/Silva is more effective than the .30 06 on the Mega fauna of the destroyermen’s world.

          As to the single shot bolt action Republic rifle the same arguments can be made, but more important they may have started their production twenty to forty years prior to the arrival of the SMS Amerika. Remember some Bores came to settle over the years.

          Reply
          1. By Steve Moore on

            They have a limited number of ’03s and Krags now. They have the Empire’s acknowledged expertise in optics. Why not create a basic scope for them, that would allow marksbeings the ability to reach out and touch Grik and Dom officers, before the abilities of awareness and initiative reach down to the NCO ranks? Agreed, a new infantry weapon would be nice, but maybe focus on more ammo standardization first. They’ve got at least five different bolt-actions to study.

            Failing that, make some one-offs of the Doom Stomper in .50 BMG. That would provide a sniper weapon more Cats (and humans) can handle, and some experience in making breeches for more powerful cartridges.

            OK, this is going to sound even sillier, but what about leveraction carbines? Just gave away my 30-30 Marlin, and thinking about how light it was.

            JMHO

          2. By Matt White on

            Good scopes are hard to come by, especially with their level of tech. Making a telescope for spotting or field glasses is one thing but making an accurate and consistent rifle scope is another. Most WW1 and WW2 era scopes are pretty trash. That’s just the sad truth. They didn’t hold zero well and had problems with fogging up. They were also generally pretty fragile. Not at all like the modern glass we are spoiled with. To my knowledge nitrogen purging wasn’t developed until post war by Leupold and during the war external adjustments were common. They made good target rifles and we’re certainly used in combat but I think most people would be surprised by their shortcomings. In my opinion the most combat capable scope of the war was the the Soviet PU used on the mosin. It wasn’t the highest power scope or the nicest to use but in classic Russian engineering it took a lot of abuse for it’s time. The German scopes were nice but generally not all that rugged and the scopes the US mounted on the M1C were junk and probably made the rifle worse, not to mention right handed only. The biggest problem scopes will face by far is fogging up in the humid tropical world the crew are in. Without a sealed nitrogen filled tube they will fog over as soon as the sun comes up.

            I can see a few being made and fielded in special situations. It would be nice to give them to Larry and Silva and let them sneak behind lines and pick off Esshk and the Chooser Carlos Hathcock style. They wouldn’t be ready for serial production though and frankly at the ranges of engagement we are seeing they aren’t necessarily needed. A good 1903 with good aperture irons and a good shooter can take out a man sized Target at several hundred yards already. Hell Silva took out that Dom priest with a headshot in what almost amounted to indirect fire. He may not even need a scoped Springfield to do the job.

            As for regular sharpshooters just having a Krag or 03 is going to be all the edge they need for the Grik or Dom’s.

        4. By donald j johnson on

          One thing to remember. The Metallurgy of the Destroyer men is not ” up to par ” at least if you compare it with u.s. medals at the same. Remember they are still learning their metals and how to work them. They only ran the steel two years ago remember

          Reply
          1. By donald j johnson on

            Come to think of it I suspect that Taylor is actually already running their progress at faster than would be normal because of all the technology that his people already know because the others don’t have that information except maybe the South Africans. The knowledge of how to make the medals and how it reacts is more important than the knowledge of the various types of breech blocks because without the right metal the right breech-block isn’t going to work anyway.

          2. By Paul Smith on

            Didn’t “wootz” steel come from India?

        5. Taylor AndersonsBy Taylor Andersons on

          I hate to tell you this, but I cracked a rolling block to the first pin back in the 80s with a (light) book load of 2400. They ain’t ALL that strong. The later variants could definitely handle smokeless. I had a 7X57 for a while. But High walls probably have the potential to be the strongest, with proper steel. And the ’86 is the god of lever guns when it comes to indestructability. Huh. Notice the Browning trend here? Curiously though, and while on lever guns, despite the bad rap toggle links get (’73 and ’76 Winchesters), you ought to read some of the torture tests they endured. Pretty surprising, and I dearly love them too. I have 3 ’76s, (.45-75, .50-95, and as discussed here before, maybe the only .50-70 ’76 in the world :)) I can’t remember right now how many ’73s I have… Yeah, I like ’em.

          Reply
    3. Taylor AndersonsBy Taylor Andersons on

      Good points all, but I fear you have contradicted yourself a little. The The Allin/Silva is a virtual copy of one of the first variants of the “trapdoor” Springfield, more specifically the 2nd Model Allin, which didn’t even have a proper receiver. As described in the books, the receiver was just the back of the barrel and the breechblock was held in place by a hinge that was screwed and soldered onto the barrel. It locked by cammining into a hemispherical mortise milled into the breechplug. The 1868, 1870, and ultimately the 1873 models were better and better, with actual receivers, but I’ve seen a number of those cracked at the hinge on the block. This usually resulted from them being used with modern smokeless loads. Anyway, though some of the last ’84/’88 variants were chambered in .30 US (.30-40 Krag) for experimental purposes, I’ve never imagined trying one in .30-06. It is the ultimate in weak, rear-locking bolts/blocks. Don’t get me wrong, I freaking love them. I have one (or more than one) of each variant and they’ll handle black powder pressures just fine. I HAVE seen one of the reproductions without the proper hammer shape–that ensures the breechblock is locked before the hammer can contact the firing pin–fire–and eject the spent cartridge right over the head of the shooter when the unlocked breech flipped up on its own! Scary.
      Sorry. Now I’m veering off the subject. The Republic went with, basically (as you say) the ’71, without a magazine, because it was easy to make in large numbers using casehardened iron and somewhat indeterminate steel. Perfectly suitable for large caliber black powder cartridges–which could be fed with propellants already available in the Republic, and were great for large boogers. This philosophy wasn’t much different from the Allies. They “settled” for a good enough breechloader (given their capabilities and the threat they understood at the time) while also passing up the Gatling–which they could’ve made much earlier–so they could make the jump in metallurgy and machining capacity necessary to copy the much simpler and much better 1919 Browning. The Repubs, armed with single-shot ’71s even longer but being more defensive minded, focused on the tech required to produce their Derby Guns–and other things. The technology probably now exists in the Union and Republic to make the wonderful ’98 or ’03–but what about the manufacturing capacity redundancy? Either (the Union, for example) has the capacity to make BOTH Allin/Silvas at the same time while the transition is underway, or they have to stop making one to make the other. And, of course, they’d have to do the same with everything else associated with them. The good thing is, they’re already making lots of .30-06 so they could spin that up fairly quickly, but the logistical nightmare of supplying multiple types of small arms ammunition is dwarfed by the problems associated with fielding an entirely new type of rifle while feverishly trying to equip new troops, combat operations are ongoing, and they’d STILL having to supply multiple types of ammo during the transition. And all this during a highly critical phase of the war. Not saying it won’t or can’t happen. Won’t even say it isn’t happening already. Good discussion subject. Would the benefit outweigh the monumental pain in the ass factor? What does everyone else think?

      Reply
      1. By Justin on

        Well the longer they wait, the bigger the problem will get – more new troops means more trapdoor rifles that’ll need to get replaced anyway.

        I’d say knock out the Grik, then rip the band-aid off immediately after that.

        Reply
        1. By Matt White on

          My thoughts exactly. After soffeshk the army in the west should have a minute to catch their breath and consolidate. The fighting won’t end outright but it will be a transition from a major war zone to smaller skirmishes as the republic and Union work their way closer to the interior. Not all troops can go in at once for logistical reasons as well as strategic ones. Someone will have to hold the city and keep the ports open and you can’t dump a massive army in a thick jungle and keep things running well. That seems like a good time to me to start shipping in new rifles, training the units up on them and sending the old breach loaders east with any excess ammunition they have. You can do it company by company as they rotate in from the front back into soffeshk or maybe even batallion by batallion depending on how fast production ramps up. I would be surprised if the designers at Balkpan haven’t already been working on the 1903. With the 1911, Blitzer and MGs already in production they don’t have anything else to do other than work on new projects. Given the inventiveness of the Lemurians I’d bet some have started experimenting with autoloading rifles although that will prove to be just as hard a nut to crack for them as it was in real life if not moreso. They don’t have a John Browning sitting around and so far everything has either been a reverse engineered copy or based on very well understood princples. Reliable autoloaders like superchargers are probably going to require better steel than is currently available.

          Reply
          1. By Justin on

            //Reliable autoloaders like superchargers are probably going to require better steel than is currently available.//

            Battle rifles (like the Garand), or auto rifles? For the sake of not shooting faster than the factories can supply, I’d suggest that a typical squad carry 2-3 automatics and everybody else a bolt-action.

            Question: would they go for a direct BAR copy, or try and save steel with an automatic Springfield (like the Huot)?

          2. By Matt White on

            Self loading semi auto rifles. People look at the BAR and ask why that doesn’t work but they don’t realize it’s overbuilt, very big and very heavy. Not at all like a Garand.

          3. By Justin on

            Sure, but the Garand had America’s entire industrial powerhouse to manufacture its 30-06; can’t say the same for whatever Baalkpan comes up with. The advantage of automatic rifles (doesn’t have to be a BAR, a Huot or FG42 would work as well) is that only a couple of guys per squad are blowing through all the ammo.

            Works better as a base of fire too, unless each squad gets a .30 cal.

          4. By William Curry on

            The BAR was mostly indestructible. The M1 was not. It was prone to overheating in rapid fire and and a history of destroying op rods. It was also sensitive to port pressure to ensure correct functioning. The BAR was heavy to allow it to be controllable in rapid and automatic fire. The M1 was supposed to fire the M1 Ball round, but it proved to powerful for the weapon and was replaced by the less powerful M2 Ball round to keep from tearing up the rifle. During WW2 most units found the penetrative power for tactical use of the M2 Ball to be marginal at best and began using AP ammo which was designed for MG use. Ordnance complained bitterly about how the AP, which was hotter than the M2 ball wore out the rifle prematurely. When the M14 was adopted it used the white gas system, which had a gas cut off like a steam engine to help with port pressure issued as well as limit bending of op rods from high pressure ammo. The original Garand was designed around the .276 Pedersen cartridge which was less powerful than the 30-06. I personally don’t like the enbloc clip of the M1. It would have been much better if it had been designed with a 15 or 20 detachable box magazine.

          5. By Matt White on

            @William Curry. The BAR also had its fair share of reliability issues, but my point wasn’t about the reliability of the BAR or M1. It’s that the BAR is not a battle rifle. It’s too big and heavy. It’s a light machinegun. The M1 was hardly a perfect design either. Why didn’t it use detachable magazines?

            What I was getting at is that there are likely some designers at Balkpan working on preliminary ideas for semi auto battle rifles. The BAR proves it can work but everyone knows its poorly suited to the task. What is needed is something lighter and handier that is simpler to build and maintain while still being reliable.

            They wont see something like that for years but I think its worth stating that even at this stage people are likely already thinking about it.

          6. By Justin on

            The BAR’s not a battle rifle OR an light machine gun, it’s an automatic rifle – in modern terms, a Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW).

            The point is to have something lighter and more widespread than a .30 cal BUT heavier than a rifle, in order to enable proper fire and manoeuvre; the Browning was outshot by squad-level MG42s in Europe, but more than proved itself in the Pacific against Arisakas.

            And doesn’t have to be a BAR – the (never adopted) Huot Automatic Rifle was created by fitting a surplus Ross Mk. III with a gas piston. Shouldn’t be that much harder to do the same with an M1903.

          7. By William Curry on

            The BAR is an automatic-rifle rather than a light machine gun. It has s small box magazine rather than a belt or large drum and lacks either a cooling mechanism (like the Lewis gun), a water jacket or quick change barrels. It was originally operated by a three man team to provide fire support to the section just like a Chauchat. By the mid 1920’s it was placed into the infantry squad as the squad base of fire. It was intended to pin the enemy so that the riflemen can maneuver to assault the objective. Or it was used to provide fire against an attacking enemy. In the Great war automatic rifle teams were used in conjunction with rifle grenades to suppress enemy machine guns during an assault. In WW2 the USMC put a BAR into each of the 3 fire teams in their squad. The US Army generally had one with the squad leader carrying a Thompson SMG for additional close fire power. The Germans in WW2 had their entire infantry squad based around either a MG34 or MG42. The MG42 used a belt but tactically was used like an automatic rifle with short bursts. It was capable of more sustained fire with a tripod and changing the barrel every 200 rounds. The Bren gun was a good auto rifle that in a pinch copuld fake being an LMG very well with a tripod and changing the barrel every 200 rds. I like the way a BREN ejects its cases from the bottom. You can also squeeze off single shots with the trigger just like the BAR (M1918A2) on low cyclic.

          8. By Matt on

            That may be technically what its called but doctrinally it was deployed as an LMG in the second world war. I really wouldn’t call it a SAW either. That’s a more modern concept in part derived from lessons learned from the BAR. I think in a modern sense SAW is interchangeable with LMG anyways. They do the same thing and the M249 is both. Either way we are getting pedantic. The BAR is not suited to being a battle rifle.

          9. By Justin on

            //The BAR is not suited to being a battle rifle.//

            Who said it should be one? Auto rifle, LMG, whatever, the point is that the Union needs a dedicated suppressive fire weapon at the fireteam level more than semi-autos; the closest they’ve got is the M1919s, and those aren’t going to be doled out to each squad anytime soon.

            Phasing out the “M1945” Springfield is going to be just as hard as it phasing out the Allin-Silva – if implemented, it’s likely that the Allies will end up with trapdoors, bolt-actions AND semi-autos all at the same time! Might as well keep the ’45 and focus on some kind of SAW.

          10. By Matt White on

            //Who said it should be one?//

            Nobody. But if you go back and check the first post I made in this chain I had brought it up when I was talking about possible experimentation at the balkpan arsenal on autoloaders. All I said about the BAR was that while it make look like a good base for a battle rifle at first glance it wasn’t and something new would have to be developed. Then everyone started talking about the BAR.

          11. By donald johnson on

            I suppose that now we will have to wait for Taylor decide in about 2 books from now how he is going to handle it:-)

          12. By Justin on

            Right, and then I said “battle rifles or auto rifles?” and suggested that bolt-actions and a couple of ARs (BAR, Huot, whatever) would be better supply-wise.

            Ah well, probably won’t happen until three books from now anyway.

          13. By Matt White on

            Didn’t Courtney and Silva salvage a Lewis gun from the Beaufort wreck? That would be ideal for an LMG design. Makes a much better design than a BAR does at least and the design can take 30-06. They made a few but the army never used them because the head of ordinance hated Lewis.

          14. By William Curry on

            The BAR was not deployed as an LMG during WW2, it was deployed as an automatic rifle as the squad or fire team base of base. The Lewis gun was always deployed as an LMG with a squad to operate and support it. The difference is that an automatic rifle can be successfully operated by a single man an LMG requires a dedicated gun squad. The Chauchat and BAR were originally deployed in the Great War with a team of 3 men, gunner, loader and scout who’s purpose was to carry ammo and provide rear and flank security. The extra two were dispensed with in the 1920’s and the BAR was made integral to the rifle squad. An LMG is usually operated by a dedicated squad of 5, Squad Leader, gunner, assistant gunner and two ammo carriers who also provide rear and flank security for the gun as well as replacement is case the gunner or assistant gunner is put out of action. The BAR as integral to the rifle squad doesn’t need special flank and rear security, an LMG does because as soon as it opens up it becomes everyone favorite target. The LMG will go through ammo at a much fast rate than an AR and requires dedicated ammo carriers. LMG’s have been used in the squad as the base of fire, what that does is turn the rifle squad into a MG squad, where the riflemen just provide support to the gun instead of the other way around. I’ve talked to people who have seen infantry combat from WW2 through Iraq and everyone I’ve talked to says the the LMG should be a platoon level weapon under the control of the platoon leader rather than part of the rifle squad. The requirements of the LMG tends to hamper the maneuverability of the rifle squad where as the Automatic rifle or assault rifle used in the automatic rifle position doesn’t.

          15. By Justin on

            Just checked – the Beaufort had a Vickers (a GPMG). Either way, if weight is a problem, then neither it nor the Lewis should even be a contender – they’re twice as heavy as the Browning!

            To reiterate, the Allies can surely come up with a squad automatic other than the BAR, if the design is such a problem. An improved Type-96 or a gas piston Springfield with drum mag, for example.

          16. By Steve Moore on

            Did all the Japanese LMGs get squashed under the Hidioame?

          17. By Charles Simpson on

            No many Japanese arms were recovered, but limited Japanese Ammo, and no plans to make any. However if they captured the equipment to make Japanese Ammo in Zanzibar they may have bullets. Like .30-06 Japanese 6mm was standard for both rifles and LMGs.

      2. By Matt on

        //I hate to tell you this, but I cracked a rolling block to the first pin back in the 80s with a (light) book load of 2400. They ain’t ALL that strong. The later variants could definitely handle smokeless.//

        Yikes, I’ve never heard of one failing but rolling blocks are sadly thin on the ground here in Kentucky. I didn’t mean to imply that the early series guns from the 1860’s could take smokeless. I was referring to the fact that the action scaled well into the smokeless era, hell they were issued by the allies in WW1 for rear line duty chambering 8mm lebel and 7mm mauser.

        //Anyway, though some of the last ’84/’88 variants were chambered in .30 US (.30-40 Krag) for experimental purposes, I’ve never imagined trying one in .30-06.//

        I remember hearing Ian on forgotten weapons talk about those. Apparently they were really accurate and well liked. Probably could have made a good rifle if it wasn’t overshadowed by the Krag.

        Anyways back to the books, I’m doing a lot of splitballing here seeing what everyone else thinks. I think moving to a 30-06 infantry rifle of some kind for the west is the right move in the mid-term. Can’t have them for Soffeshk but it seems to me once that nut is cracked the action in the west for the time being is going to go more lower intensity as they mop up scattered Grik pockets or the surviving organized forces. Good times to start integrating the new rifles if they can be ready. First the last stragglers with muzzle loaders like the maroons get upgraded to allin-silva’s and then the surplus of them get shipped back to the east where they are sorely needed. They can probably get away with re-equipping all of the east with the breachloaders from the west. It wont happen overnight but if the math works out then the arsenals can switch full time to modern small arms. There’s no reason to make more black powder breachloaders than you absolutley have to, especially since it was meant to be a stopgap from day 1 (just like in the real world) and they will have limited use in a nitrocellulose army.

        Now what form that transition takes I think is the grey area. Do we try to adapt the trapdoors to smokeless? Is that doable? I thought it was given the Uberti’s are supposed to handle smokeless but everyone’s comments are making me rethink that. Do they try for a highwall/martini/rollingblock/something breach gun that can take 30-06? Or do they avoid the long term downsides of that wasted production and jump head first into 1903/M98 production? Also what model 1903 does the crew of the Walker have? Is it the older A1 or the newer A3 with the superior aperture sights?

        Reply
        1. By William Curry on

          The aperture sight on the M1903A3 was a piece of junk. It was not well made and the spring holding the slide with the aperture was weak. It tended to slip down towards the front under recoil. I’ve seen a lot of A3 sights with a set screw added to prevent this. The Uberti breech loaders currently made have smokeless powder CIP proof. Look for a proofmark with PSF. That doesn’t mean they are safe with any smokeless load you can cram in them. They are safe (if in good condition) for any smokeless load that complies with the CIP pressure standards for the cartridge that they are chambered for. Plus I’ve had a trap door auto-eject a case over my head because it didn’t lock properly. Don’t forget that the Allies are having quality control problems with their steel, witness the boiler tube problems in the last book.

          Reply
          1. Taylor AndersonsBy Taylor Andersons on

            Good point about the sight. I’ve got two of them–both new/unissued–and they both do that. A buddy of mine had an unissued 03A3 and we had to put a set screw in it.

          2. By Matt White on

            I didn’t know the 1903 had that kind of design flaw in the sights. Still I think that says more about that particular sight than apertures in general. I find open notches are the bare bones minimum and while they are easy to line up for windage, elevation is less easy. Peeps are great but tend to be too fragile and fittly for a combat weapon. A good aperture seems to be the best middle ground. Target aquisition is fast like open sights, maybe faster, but it naturally centers and makes aiming very easy even when under stress. I think the fact that the US armed forces have stuck with them since WW2 says a lot about their utility especially considering how obsessed with marksmanship they were and still to some degree are. I don’t consider myself a great shot, I’m a good shot but hardly competition capable, but if I had the choice of iron sights I’d choose an AR style aperture every time.

        2. Taylor AndersonsBy Taylor Andersons on

          All ’03s are the A1 with Buffington sights. (Far more accurate than the 03A3 in ideal lighting, and if you can take careful aim, but not as good for snap shooting). Shoot, few of our guys would even be familiar with the 03A3 and may not think about a receiver mounted peep on a bolt gun unless they’d been exposed to P-17s (like Billy Flynn). Guys like Silva would have been exposed to a variety of peep sights, however. Even the Buffington has a peep if you flip it up–but SUPER accurate as that can make it, so far from the eye, it makes target acquisition even more difficult.

          The Uberti trapdoors can handle smokeless black powder “equivalent” loads just fine, structurally. So can most originals. But the smokeless “equivalent” loads can’t seem to match the performance of the “proper” :) black powder loads and all those considered “safe’ tend to sacrifice a few hundred fps compared to the original loads–with corresponding energy/accuracy sacrifices. Here’s a fun tidbit: I load my .50-95 Winchester with 80 grns of 3F Swiss under a 435grn bullet. (I actually settled on this load after an unprecedented amount of workup, and AFTER I came up with the .50-80 notion for the Allin-Silva). Anyway, since the bottleneck on a .50-95 is so insignificant, I doubt it adds much to the pressure and I consider it a good analog for the Allied .50-80 in the series. I have graphed this load, with Doppler radar, at 1,550 fps. Zeroed a few inches high at 100 yds, one need only cover the poa at 150 to hit there, and aim at the top of an 18” gong at two hundred. This would be like covering a Grik torso with the front sight to hit center mass at 200 yds. And that’s with no sight adjustments. Just as significant, even at that range, the energy is still greater than a .30-06. Just saying. And don’t forget, a large percentage of the US infantry storming the San Juan heights in Cuba (71st New York) were armed with trapdoor Springfields–against 7X57 ’98 Mausers

          Reply
          1. By William Curry on

            The 50-95 is a Black Powder Express Cartridge. Some of the British Black Powder Express Rifles could get over 2000 fps using only black. The 450 BPE 3 1/4 for example.

          2. Taylor AndersonsBy Taylor Andersons on

            //The 50-95 is a Black Powder Express Cartridge//
            True, but obviously, I don’t load mine as one. It has a faster twist and likes heavier bullets. Fine with me.

          3. By Matt White on

            No doubt the allin Silva’s can reliably hit a man/Grik sized Target at 100-150 yards. In the right hands they should be able to reliably hit twice that far. I doubt under stress and with the very real fog of war on the field they are reliable farther. A 1903 should be easy. Of course volley fire into massed ranks should be achievable at much farther distances. The Marshall report and others like it showed that engagement ranges for infantry rarely exceed 300 yards which is probably the max we can reliably expect an average rifleman with open sights to achieve anyways. Because of that I think the 1903s they do have should be issued only to sharpshooters who are tasked with taking out command elements further back. Putting them in the line, even on a raider unit is a waste of their potential. They wouldn’t be adding much there, but used deliberately against officers would give those rifles an effectivness far above what they would usually achieve.

          4. By Lou Schirmer on

            One of the reasons engagements are mostly inside 300 yards is a man sized target is hard to see at that range, especially if they’re not moving. Eyes can pickup movement well past that, but when standing still, an individual tends to blend into the background. Now massed ranks is a different thing entirely, as they are easy to spot & engage. A spread out unit moving tactically, using cover & concealment, makes for a difficult target, brush, trees, tall grass & broken terrain make it even harder.

          5. By Steve Moore on

            Right on, Matt. And even if you don’t kill the target, wounding them (especially a senior officer) will usually involve about six or eight more of the enemy to move him to the rear, on in the case of the Grik, to the mulligan stewpot.

          6. By donald johnson on

            A question to taylor. I did see a doomwhomper in your arsinal but don’t remember seeing the alan silva. Did I miss it cause a was looking for the doomwhomper.

          7. Taylor AndersonsBy Taylor Andersons on

            Hey Don. I thought I showed it to you?

        3. By donald j johnson on

          Dang did Matt, I was in Western Kentucky on this trip I missed out seeing two of you on one trip. what part of Kentucky, I was in the western area for the solar eclipse

          Reply
          1. By Matt White on

            Lexington. Work precluded me from going down to hopkinsville but I heard it was packed anyways. Got a decent show at any rate even if it wasn’t totality.

      3. By Charles Simpson on

        Now is not the time to field new weapons. Not until both the Grik and the Holy Dominion are down. They are still using muzzleloaders on that front. Unless the League of Tripoli jumps in the Allin/Silva and the Republic rifle are fine. Unless the League supports the Holly Dominion with modern bolt action rifles there is no need for them on that front.

        If the tooling is made the start of production and sending them to units that can most use them. The Japanese weapons and ammunition toolage might be sent to King Scott. Manufacturing tool for the Allin/Silva may be sent to the South American front to provide arms for local malitias and civilian use post war.

        Reply
        1. By Lou Schirmer on

          I’m going to mostly agree with no fielding of a new main battle rifle at least until after the Grik issue is truly settled. Just pushing them out of Sofesshk won’t be enough to ensure that though. Even if they get Esshk & The Chooser, there are other regencies that can rally the Grik for a counter attack &/or an insurgency, if there’s a smart regent out there observing the war.

          That said, they should have one in development & testing & getting production tooling ready. When operations against the Grik start winding down & they rotate units back for R&R, they can start the rearming process & ship half the 50-80s East & keep the rest as a reserve for emergencies. Since they’re already sending some east now & the Empire is probably tooling up for them also, they may not need more.

          Reply
  10. By Paul Smith on

    If this has been asked before, I apologize. Is the sonar from the Hidoiame recoverable(not destroyed in the sinking/ wrecking of the ship) and if so, are the manuals available? Her sonar should be a lot better than Walkers. If not, could it be reverse engineered from the pieces. I assume the big differences would be in the design of the sound head, or maybe the amplification section of the sonar.

    Reply
    1. By Justin on

      Sonar sets are usually somewhere between the bridge and the bow keel, so it should have survived an amidships collision.

      Problem is that even interwar ASDIC is a no-go right now. Hydrophones, definitely. Passive sonar, perhaps.

      Reply
      1. By Lou Schirmer on

        Walker’s sonar seems to be doing OK. It found & helped sink the Sourcouf type sub & is used in active mode to scare off mountain fish. They’ve installed at least the ping generators in most ships for that purpose & I think the new DDs have full up active & passive sonar.

        Reply
      2. By Matt White on

        When you really get down to it hydrophones are passive sonar. In modern terms when we talk about a passive sonar system we are talking about an array of hydrophones as well as the computing powder behind it for signal processing. Active is that plus a big ass speaker to make the ping.

        There are three ways you make sonar better. 1: a better array, as in placement and number of hydrophones. 2: the performance of the hydrophones in sensitivity, spectrum range etc. And 3: the quality of the filtering and processing behind it all.

        I highly doubt the Japanese sonar set is going to be a huge improvement over that in walker. Walker has an active set as well as passive which means it doesn’t date back to ww1 and was likely a refit in the 20’s or probably 30’s. The next big leap in sonar didn’t come until the German type XXI uboat which had a much more capable system with better hydrophones and a highpass filter among other improvements. It was so good both the Russians and the US straight copied it post war as the BQR2 and stag ear sets.

        Point is I don’t think the Japanese sonar set would be much of an improvement. Most of the advances made by both sides happened after the crossover of Walker and Hidioame. If they had a later war fleet boat cross over then real improvements can be made. Around 1942 the US developed a more reliable piezoelectric transducer. The real win would be a friendly German type XXI though.

        Reply
    1. By Lou Schirmer on

      Plus, she was hit by two torpedoes, so she may have significant damage to the port screws & possibly damage to the port reduction gearing & some flooding. Even with weak torpedo warheads, that section even on BBs is lightly armored if it has any.

      Reply
      1. By Charles Simpson on

        Flooding was reported, and they called for firemen to keep steam up for the pumps in the book.

        Reply
      2. By Lou Schirmer on

        If they have to do repairs on her engines, they might as well swap her old turbines & boilers out for new Walker turbines & boilers. With 23K extra horse power, she could probably do 24 knots or so, plus they wouldn’t have to build & test one of a kind parts for her.

        Reply
          1. By Lou Schirmer on

            Granted she may not do 24 knots, but she will get a speed increase from an extra 23K HP. She was capable 0f 20 knots on 29K HP, even with a bluff hull form she’ll be a few knots faster.

          2. By Alexey Shiro on

            Sigh.

            To get “Conte di Cavour” going from 22 knots to 27 knots, the Italians basically DOUBLED the power output of her boilers & turbines (actually, her max required TRIPLE power increase – forced draught up to 93000 hp), completely redesigned her screws arrangement and remade her hull to be longer.

            //Granted she may not do 24 knots, but she will get a speed increase from an extra 23K HP. She was capable 0f 20 knots on 29K HP, even with a bluff hull form she’ll be a few knots faster.//

            What’s the difference between 20 and 21-22 knots in 1930s?

            And I doubt that the destroyer-grade turbines would be really good for massive battleship… Remember; the “Savoie” have geared turbines, not electrical type.

          3. By Lou Schirmer on

            Sigh.

            She would be getting about an 85% increase in power. That should get her a couple of knots. The main thing however would be installing new equipment the Union knows how to operate & maintain & that isn’t thirty years old with no recent overhaul & that probably couldn’t make 20 knots anymore. Her power plant would be much more reliable & fuel efficient. They wouldn’t have to make parts for just one ship. The Walker turbines are geared, but we’ve had that discussion before about putting them into larger ships & our local experts said it makes no real difference, especially since the Walker turbine sets are more powerful than what they’re replacing.

          4. By Justin on

            With the book’s numbers, it’s actually a 63-75K horsepower increase (up from 29K). That IS a tripled power output, so at least 25 knots seems reasonable.

            I’d be more worried about the guns – nobody’s making 13.4″ any time soon…

          5. By Alexey Shiro on

            Or the stress would start to rip her hull apart. You seems to forget, that in ship’s cases, the hydrodynamic is as important as overall power. Ships AREN’T rockets; they aren’t moving in vacuum, where their engines is the only source of acceleration.

            // that isn’t thirty years old with no recent overhaul //

            Er… all “Bretange”-class battleships have mid-life upgrade in 1930s. Not very complex, but their boilers were replaced and their turbines changed from direct-action to geared.

            So the “Savoie”‘s powerplant is, actually, NEWER AND BETTER than “Walker”‘s.

            //our local experts said it makes no real difference, especially since the Walker turbine sets are more powerful than what they’re replacing.//

            I’m not so sure about that. Especially considering that the “Savoie”‘s turbines are newer.

          6. By Lou Schirmer on

            It appears you’re quite right Alexey, some boilers were change to oil firing in the refit & the direct drive turbines went to geared drive. The horse power was increased to 43K SHP & she went up to 21.4 knots. Amazing!
            While her equipment may be newer, it’s certainly not as powerful as the Walker turbines, & I still think it would be a good idea to replace them, especially if the machinery was damaged by the torpedo hits. After serving with the LOT for five years with presumably low maintenance priority, her machinery is probably in as bad a shape as Walkers was when she crossed over.

            http://www.navypedia.org/ships/france/fr_bb_bretagne.htm

          7. By Justin on

            That was the Courbets in the Thirties; the Bretagnes in the Twenties upgrades their fire control and main battery elevation, and got ONE set of new boilers: https://books.google.ca/books?id=YnS9AwAAQBAJ&pg=PA18&lpg=PA18&dq=bretagne+battleship+refit&source=bl&ots=BT3vlHAySb&sig=yIivV9OCjWQJ4AcHrfbLSS5iXOc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjd0LPGitrVAhVeHGMKHWehCvsQ6AEIYTAK#v=onepage&q=bretagne%20battleship%20refit&f=false

            Given that none of them increased their displacement or got any faster, it’s safe to say any “modern” turbines are no more powerful than the last set.

          8. By Justin on

            Ninja’ed, and corrected. Regardless, even two of Ellis’ turbines would be an upgrade – especially because the French machinery is incompatible with the rest of the Union’s.

          9. By Lou Schirmer on

            The Bretagne class had several overhauls, two in the 20s & one in the early 30s. One of the 20s overhauls replaced the coal boilers with oil fired, but no power upgrade. The overhaul from 31-34 replaced all the boilers & the direct drive turbines with geared drive & raised power to 43K & speed to 21.4 knots.

            http://www.navypedia.org/ships/france/fr_bb_bretagne.htm

      3. By Steve Moore on

        Swap her to the RRP for assets to be named later, like maybe a new-construction cruiser or two. Closer than Baalkpaan, and they’ve got the monitors’ crews to help crew her. Even if she’s parked in harbor, that’s one hell of a shore battery.

        The Alliance needs faster hulls and more commonality in an ocean-spanning fleet. The RRP needs something to stick closer to home, although Cape-able (that’s for Justin) to kick the crap out of anything the League has.

        Failing that, just tow her up to the Zambezi and jam her into the channel. Imagine the fire support she could provide.

        Reply
        1. By Steve Moore on

          Or a few Amerika-clone troopships, with Walker turbines & boilers. Just the thing for a fast cruise to the Caribbean and through the Casa Fuego (whatever the hell the name is)

          Reply
          1. By Alexey Shiro on

            //Or a few Amerika-clone troopships, with Walker turbines & boilers. Just the thing for a fast cruise to the Caribbean and through the Casa Fuego (whatever the hell the name is)//

            Just a target practice for the first League cruiser met.

            The “Savoie” currently is more valuable than half of whole Alliance fleet. She is the only ship, that could really absorb battle damage, stand and fight, not just bite and run away.

          2. By Steve Moore on

            OK, so keep them away from the LOT’s area of operations and just use them in the Pacific. Getting kind of late, brain ells obviously slipping a few cogs, so will wait for any more snappy comments from you fellows on the other side of the Eggsan-Bacon line until my circadian rhythms start perking again.

            Still think the Savoie is not much more than scrap. Heck, even the FRENCH wanted to get rid of her and keep a puny DD.

        2. By Alexey Shiro on

          //Swap her to the RRP for assets to be named later, like maybe a new-construction cruiser or two.//

          Er… what? Trade the battleship – combat-capable, albeit damaged – for a couple of future cruisers?

          This doesn’t make any sense.

          //Even if she’s parked in harbor, that’s one hell of a shore battery.//

          Oh yeah, gave up the most capable surface combatant avaliable, the only one in the whole Alliance navy, which could really absorb damage!

          //The Alliance needs faster hulls//

          Faster than what?

          // and more commonality in an ocean-spanning fleet. //

          They currently have no commonality at all, so the point is moot.

          //The RRP needs something to stick closer to home, although Cape-able (that’s for Justin) to kick the crap out of anything the League has.//

          The Republic didn’t have any sea-going navy at all! They have no clue what to do with battleship, they have no shore facilities to support her, and they have no escort ships to support her! The Alliance have.

          Reply
          1. By Justin on

            The Union’s commitments span half the known world and more. They need heavies that can keep up with 4-stackers as they race across the Atlantic and make hit-and-runs against the League… or at the very least can make it across the Indian and Pacific in a week, and without stopping for gas.

            Whereas the Republic only needs to defend their borders and the Cape, and possibly attack West Africa right in front of them – perfect for a slow, short-range dreadnought.

            So even if the Union keeps Savoie for now, she needs to operate out of Alex-aandra where she can help the most. Once the Republic’s finished taking notes and can put some proper cruisers together, the Union can hand her over in exchange for a panzerschiffe or two.

          2. By Steve Moore on

            Combat-capable? On the beach, shot full of holes, one turret’s damaged. Oh year, and everything’s en francais with maybe one or two French Nazis to translate.
            LOT’s not going to be a problem for a few years, while the Alliance doesn’t really have the need for Savoie.
            Commonality? Same turbines, same boilers, same guns, same crews .
            Monitors are closer to battleships than 4-stackers.
            Savoie’s a ‘nice to have’, but it’s like owning a Citroen DS-19..

          3. By Alexey Shiro on

            //The Union’s commitments span half the known world and more. They need heavies that can keep up with 4-stackers as they race across the Atlantic and make hit-and-runs against the League… or at the very least can make it across the Indian and Pacific in a week, and without stopping for gas.//

            One small problem. The Alliance carriers are slower than “Savoie”, so all this “keep up with 4-stackers” literally make no sence.

            The destroyers are the ESCORTS. They are forced to keep up with capital ships, not visa-versa. For foreseable future, the average speed of Alliance Navy would be less than cruising speed of “Savoie” (10 knots) simply because of extensive use of slow carriers and auxilaries.

            And considering range… the economical range of “Bretagne”-class is 4600 nm. The economical range of “Wickes”-class is 3800 nm. So basically, it would be “Walker”, who would slow down the “Savoie”, not visa-versa.

            //Once the Republic’s finished taking notes and can put some proper cruisers together, the Union can hand her over in exchange for a panzerschiffe or two.//

            Make literally no sence. Nothing the Republic could build in 10-15 years would be as capable as “Savoie”. Don’t forget, their planned “panzerschiffe” are some sort of “coastal battleship-cruisers” of late XIX century.

          4. By Alexey Shiro on

            //Monitors are closer to battleships than 4-stackers.//

            Monitors could not OPERATE with battleships. “Savoie” need destroyers to cover her, fast cruisers to scout for her, and carriers to protect her. The Alliance have all she need. The Republik have literally nothing.

            //LOT’s not going to be a problem for a few years, while the Alliance doesn’t really have the need for Savoie.//

            Yeah, yeah. And how, for Pete’s sake, the Alliance should know that?

          5. By Justin on

            //The destroyers are the ESCORTS. They are forced to keep up with capital ships, not visa-versa. For foreseable future, the average speed of Alliance Navy would be less than cruising speed of “Savoie” (10 knots) simply because of extensive use of slow carriers and auxilaries. //

            A) If the CVs are in any situation where they need 13.4″ support, then they AND Savoie are goners. Remember what happened to Exeter and Nerraca? The best they can hope for is to run and hope whoever’s chasing them is happy with one wooden CV.

            B) For escorts, they sure seem to do a lot of the heavy lifting.

            The Union’s new BB is tough, but she’s still just one ship, and a slow one.
            Inferior odds: toast.
            Superior odds: the League can evade or intercept by the time she gets there.
            Convoy/base raid: See above.
            Escort: still able to do that under the Kaiser – and lets the Republic start building something close to proper capitals.

            What the Union really needs is a Graf Spee-esque raider that can work in tandem with Walker and the others when they go on yet another harebrained adventure.

            //And considering range… the economical range of “Bretagne”-class is 4600 nm. The economical range of “Wickes”-class is 3800 nm. So basically, it would be “Walker”, who would slow down the “Savoie”, not visa-versa.//

            That’s at flank speed – ships spend most of their time at cruising speed. Cruising range of a Bretagne is 4,600 NM at 10 knots – a Wickes can cover 5,000 @ 15 and 3,400 @ 20. Walker just has more mileage.

            Long term, the Union needs a sprinter, or at least an endurance runner; at this point Savoie is neither – she’s more like a floating battery. And after Sofesshk falls, the best place for a floating battery is plugging either Good Hope or the Pass of Fire.

            //Don’t forget, their planned “panzerschiffe” are some sort of “coastal battleship-cruisers” of late XIX century.//

            Generation 1, yes – Generations 2 and 3, given Savoie and a few Union expats to work with, will inevitably be better.

            If we’re drawing up plans for the Union to build a 25,000t battlecruiser, then the Republic (with an immensely superior tech/industrial base and some help) can surely get to an 18-19,000t pocket BB.

          6. By Alexey Shiro on

            Justin, you get it all wrong.

            //A) If the CVs are in any situation where they need 13.4″ support, then they AND Savoie are goners. Remember what happened to Exeter and Nerraca? The best they can hope for is to run and hope whoever’s chasing them is happy with one wooden CV.//

            Exactly what the Union carriers are unable to do, is run. The League have a lot of really fast combatants – light & heavy cruisers, destroyers, large torpedo boats – that could chase and hit the carriers easily. Especially dangerous are cruisers and large destroyers, because they are superior to Union units.

            The “Savoie” is a game-changer. She could simply stand and fight, covering the carriers retreat. In combination with destroyers, she could sucsessfully chase off the LOT light forces without being seriously damaged.

            //The Union’s new BB is tough, but she’s still just one ship, and a slow one.//

            The one battleship is more than enough to make possible combined torpedo-artillery tactics, greatly improving the Union naval capabilities. Battleships and destroyers work quite good in combination, forcing the opponent to divert attention.

            //Inferior odds: toast.//

            NO. Exactly because they have balanced forces, they could get out of inferior odds. Simply speaking, its always hard to crash a balanced force, where participants are capable of full spectrum of tactical solutions.

            //Superior odds: the League can evade or intercept by the time she gets there.//

            Sigh. The Union have carrier superiority, man! They could screen their deployment from Leagues aerial reconnaisance and provide superior situational awarness!

            //Convoy/base raid: See above.//

            Exactly how the League convoy or BASE would evade “Savoie”?

            //What the Union really needs is a Graf Spee-esque raider that can work in tandem with Walker and the others when they go on yet another harebrained adventure.//

            Such useless units are literally the least they need. There are absolutely zero tactical value for heavy raiders in their situation. The League “civilian” communications are all in Mediterranean, and their outer bases are probably supplied by rather large convoys, with coastal aviation to cover. The Union heavy raider would have no chances.

          7. By donald johnson on

            There will be NO new builds by anyone in the next 25 years that will equal the Savoi or any of what the league presently has. The league will NOT risk what they have unless they will have overwhelming force that is capable of totally destroying the enemy with no losses as any loses are irreplaceable within a reasonable time.
            the only present group that has the steel production capability is south Africa and the grik. the British in hawaii cam build the steel but not in the quantity’s needed for battleships nor do they have the iron mines in the quantities necessary.
            The Grik will be landlocked by the end of the next book unless there is a real screw-up so they will not be a real hindrance.

          8. By Justin on

            //The “Savoie” is a game-changer. She could simply stand and fight, covering the carriers retreat. In combination with destroyers, she could sucsessfully chase off the LOT light forces without being seriously damaged.//

            Except a League attack won’t risk one or two light ships piecemeal, they’re going to hit with a full battlegroup of their own.
            Against a lone BB, or a pair of cruisers, or half a dozen DDs, “TF Fir Tree” is strong… against all of them at once? Hence the push for an engine upgrade – even the French BBs can make more than 20 knots! It’s why they threw Savoie away in the first place!

            If the Union’s attacking, they’re going to have her and Walker out front and the CVs in back – strategic depth and all that. Retreating, same thing.
            Either way, if the League thinks it’s alright to trade a couple of light ships to cripple an enemy capital – and they likely will – it’s going to be Exeter, Encounter and Pope all over again.

            Savoie makes the Allies strong enough to plug either the Cape or the Pass of Fire. That’s it.

            //The one battleship is more than enough to make possible combined torpedo-artillery tactics, greatly improving the Union naval capabilities. Battleships and destroyers work quite good in combination, forcing the opponent to divert attention.//

            Which assumes that the Union has superior enough numbers that attention can be diverted.

            The League outnumbers the Allies – send cruisers to block the DDs and let the BBs pound Savoie. They don’t even need to sink her, just mission kill a la Kirishima.

            //Simply speaking, its always hard to crash a balanced force, where participants are capable of full spectrum of tactical solutions.//

            It’s a lot easier when your balanced force is WAY more “balanced” than theirs.

            //The Union have carrier superiority, man! They could screen their deployment from Leagues aerial reconnaisance and provide superior situational awarness!//

            Again, even their BBs are faster and longer-range. “Situational awareness” in this case means a perfect view of the League’s rear ends… and as previously agreed, existing Union bombers won’t even dent them.

            //Exactly how the League convoy or BASE would evade “Savoie”?//

            A) Savoie‘s 20 knots is her top speed. Obviously, she’s not going to steam at flank all the way, because no ship has enough fuel for thatt. Her cruising speed is 10-15 knots – about as fast as a convoy.
            B)”Or intercept.” By the time Savoie reaches a base at 10-15 knots, or even 20, the League’ll have noticed and sent a (faster) battleship of their own to block her. Best of luck withdrawing.

            //The League “civilian” communications are all in Mediterranean, and their outer bases are probably supplied by rather large convoys, with coastal aviation to cover. The Union heavy raider would have no chances.//

            Yet they’ve got ships in the Caribbean, and bases in the Pacific. They can’t be heavily defending everything.

            What the Union needs to do is find a lightly-guarded strongpoint, hit it with everything they’ve got, and get the hell out before the League responds. Savoie, in her current state, is a bit too clumsy for that.

          9. By Alexey Shiro on

            //Except a League attack won’t risk one or two light ships piecemeal, they’re going to hit with a full battlegroup of their own//

            I.e. they need to move around with no less than full battlegroups.

            Should I explain, how it would hamper their ability to project power?

            //Against a lone BB, or a pair of cruisers, or half a dozen DDs, “TF Fir Tree” is strong… against all of them at once? Hence the push for an engine upgrade – even the French BBs can make more than 20 knots! It’s why they threw Savoie away in the first place!//

            The Union currently have one (damaged) battleship, one (near-complete) light cruiser, and three operable destroyers. This is enough, to start forming the actual task force.

            //If the Union’s attacking, they’re going to have her and Walker out front and the CVs in back – strategic depth and all that. Retreating, same thing.
            Either way, if the League thinks it’s alright to trade a couple of light ships to cripple an enemy capital – and they likely will – it’s going to be Exeter, Encounter and Pope all over again. //

            Sigh. You obviously did not uderstood the situation. This couldn’t be Exeter, Encouter and Pope all over again simply because the Union have carriers. They have superior aerial reconnaisance, and fighter screening against League reconnaisance.

            Simply speaking, the Union could threw “fog of war” around, by using the fighters to chase away LOT aerial scouts and Nancy’s to spot LOT surface scouts. Which means, that League’s navy would have hard time trying to anticipate their actions!

            //Which assumes that the Union has superior enough numbers that attention can be diverted.

            The League outnumbers the Allies – send cruisers to block the DDs and let the BBs pound Savoie. They don’t even need to sink her, just mission kill a la Kirishima.//

            For that, League would be forced to combine really large number of their ships in the strike force, and moreover – they need somehow to force Union fleet to meet them. Because Union fleet – due to carrier superiority – could easily AVOID contact with League’s main forces. And stall long enough to engage not in daylight, but in nighttime action.

            Should I remind you, that LOT navy have no particular nighttime training? The USN and IJN were much better than continentals in that kind of action! And the nighttime combat, is a chance for weakest.

            //It’s a lot easier when your balanced force is WAY more “balanced” than theirs.//

            Well, the superior numbers always have a superiority. So what? Surrender immediately? :)

            //Again, even their BBs are faster and longer-range. “Situational awareness” in this case means a perfect view of the League’s rear ends… and as previously agreed, existing Union bombers won’t even dent them.//

            Situational awarness means, that League doesn’t know, where exactly are the Union ships, while the Union knew exactly, where are the League’s ships. The Nancy’s useless as bombers, but they are good scouts. The Union could provide round-the-clock 24/7 contact with League’s forces, thus providing the excellent situation for ambushes, nighttime combined attacks, or strikes against flanks and smaller sub-groups of League’s forces.

            This is all basics of naval tactics, man! Seriously, stop thinking about the naval warfare as some kind of chess party!

            //A) Savoie‘s 20 knots is her top speed. Obviously, she’s not going to steam at flank all the way, because no ship has enough fuel for thatt. Her cruising speed is 10-15 knots – about as fast as a convoy.//

            The actual crusing speed of average cargo hauler of 1930s is no more than 6-7 knots, 8-10 max. This was basically the reason, why US invested so much in “Liberty” ships – beacuse they were FASTER than average civilian hauler, and thus much less vunerable to u-boats (they could travel in “fast” convoys, while the average cargo ships could only move in “slow” convoys).

            //B)”Or intercept.” By the time Savoie reaches a base at 10-15 knots, or even 20, the League’ll have noticed and sent a (faster) battleship of their own to block her. Best of luck withdrawing.//

            So the League must disperce their fleet to have battleships at each base? :) Congratulations: you just lose the war.

            Strategical lesson number one: NEVER DISPERCE THE FORCES UNLESS IT’S UNAVOIDABLE!

            //Yet they’ve got ships in the Caribbean, and bases in the Pacific. They can’t be heavily defending everything.//

            You contradict yourself:

            * They can’t be heavily defending everything
            * the League’ll have noticed and sent a (faster) battleship of their own to block her.

            Please chose something one; either they have battleships everywhere, or their bases aren’t well protected.

            //What the Union needs to do is find a lightly-guarded strongpoint, hit it with everything they’ve got, and get the hell out before the League responds. Savoie, in her current state, is a bit too clumsy for that.//

            You obviously have no idea, about what are you talking about…

            Ok, let’s assume that Union navy hit League station on, say, Azoers. The closest heavy naval presence of the League is in Gibraltar, thousand miles away. How long it would take for the League’s, say, “Leonardo da Vinci” refitted battleship to came from Gibraltar to Azores? Three days, on cruising 12 knots.

            By that time, “Savoie” would be long gone, and – due to the “small fact”, that Union fighters are screening around, hampering the League’s aerial reconnaisance – the “Leonardo” have no idea, where exactly “Savoie” went after attack. To Republic? To NUS? To Carribean? The ocean is big, and battleships are pretty small.

          10. By donald j johnson on

            The one thing to remember is that all we know of the league ships is what one man told us. How do we know he wasn’t lying. Depending on how he was trying to help or hurt the league if he was not trying to hurt us instead he could have underestimated the league so that we would get clobbered or he could have overestimated the league so that we wouldn’t want to fight soon sooner than necessary. We need to get some of our own reconnaissance Over The League bases to determine the truth of the League’s capabilities. Then we will know what we have to worry about. As it is unlikely that the league has radar capable of more than just general detection art long range reconnaissance seaplanes should be able to overfly their bases reasonably well at least once as long as they don’t stop to play like the P-40 did. If they overfly the base Get Over the Horizon and then change directions the league won’t be able to easily take them out before they get their information back. Yes the risk will be great but the information is priceless if they can get it back and with a group of planes transferring all the information between the planes and another group of planes that are only there to read the radio messages and send them back without actually overflying the bases the knowledge will be more likely to come back.

          11. By Justin on

            //Simply speaking, the Union could threw “fog of war” around, by using the fighters to chase away LOT aerial scouts and Nancy’s to spot LOT surface scouts. Which means, that League’s navy would have hard time trying to anticipate their actions!//

            Three problems:
            1) We don’t know if Christmas Island was their only hidden station.
            2) The League’s still tapping the Union’s comms. The Union needs a cipher – even with codewords, all the enemy needs to hear is “Able Zebra is out of water” or something.
            3) If the Buzzard can see the enemy, the enemy can see the Buzzard. No amount of misdirection is going to stop the League radioman from getting on the horn and saying “enemy plane in the open ocean, suspected CV.”

            All it takes is one red flag, and some admiral’s going to scramble the fleet and meet Savoie halfway.
            Goodbye fog of war… unless the plan is to raise so many false alarms that the enemy runs out of gas, THEN attack. That might work.

            //I.e. they need to move around with no less than full battlegroups.//

            As you noted, Rule #1 is Never Disperse; the League may “split up and look for clues,” but they won’t attack one at a time like a Bruce Lee movie.
            Enemy pickets or patrols can always retreat and return with backup. If Savoie tries to attack the backup, she loses and retreats. If she runs or evades, the target is safe for another day. Mission accomplished.

            Crud, they don’t even have to attack the TF – knowing the League, they’re ready to rush the Cape/Caribbean while they’re gone. Then the TF will have to abandon the offensive and find and attack them, and/or come back to a smoking ruin.

            //The Union could provide round-the-clock 24/7 contact with League’s forces, thus providing the excellent situation for ambushes, nighttime combined attacks, or strikes against flanks and smaller sub-groups of League’s forces.//

            Unlike Kurokawa and the Grik, the League’ll be watching for those, and can react accordingly. Light ships will be screening on all sides. Sub-groups can use their superior speed to withdraw. And even with the new torps and a night attack, it’s unlikely that Walker et all will be able to close to 5,000-odd yards (effective Union torp range).

            //The actual crusing speed of average cargo hauler of 1930s is no more than 6-7 knots, 8-10 max.//

            Fair enough.

            //Please chose something one; either they have battleships everywhere, or their bases aren’t well protected.//

            “Defending,” as in “planes.” Even the bombers are limited.

            The League’s been here six years (and just look at how much the Allies have done in three), so they obviously have a strong presence in the Mediterranean.

            Beyond the Med, they’ll have a lot of footholds, but six years might not be long enough to properly fortify and garrison all of them. So some of them will be proper naval/air bases with adequate air cover; others will be mines, rigs, fuel depots and/or listening outposts that can be hit before even bombers arrive… given lack of warning, of course.

            //Ok, let’s assume that Union navy hit League station on, say, Azoers. The closest heavy naval presence of the League is in Gibraltar, thousand miles away. How long it would take for the League’s, say, “Leonardo da Vinci” refitted battleship to came from Gibraltar to Azores? Three days, on cruising 12 knots.//

            The Azores it is, then. It’s too far for any Union ship, so let’s sail through the Carib and bring a tanker.
            Savoie can get there in 11 days’ cruising speed, 6 days’ top speed; a Walker-class can do 5-7 cruising and 3 top, if not better.

            Again, they’re likely to be spotted before they get there.
            If Walker, Ellie and their new sisters go alone, they’ll likely be in and out before reinforcements, but obviously they won’t have enough “punch” to deal with the garrison.
            If Savoie comes along, her low speed and small fuel tanks slow everyone down long enough for Vinci – or worse, Caracciolo – to show up. No-go.

          12. By Alexey Shiro on

            //All it takes is one red flag, and some admiral’s going to scramble the fleet and meet Savoie halfway.
            Goodbye fog of war… unless the plan is to raise so many false alarms that the enemy runs out of gas, THEN attack. That might work.//

            Sigh.

            The “Buzzard” average range, lets assume, is around 1000 km. She is a flying boat, so she could be refueled in sea, if conditions allow that.

            So the only thing that League gonna learn from “Buzzard” contact – “there is a point from where she take off in 1000 km radius”.

            Justin, you constantly forgot; ocean is BIG. Even just 500 km circle defined the area 785398 square kilometers. Without radars, it took A LOT of efforts to just search this area by planes – assuming there are no enemy fighters to hamper with efforts.

            So, your brave League admiral is basically scrambled the fleet and sortied pointlessly. He doesn’t know anything about “where those blasted Union forces are?”. The only thing he knew, is that there are some point from where planes are launching – somewhere around. Nothing more.

            THIS is the “fog of war”. The enemy knew that you are somewhere nearby – but he doesn’t knew exactly where, and the area where you could be is just too big.

          13. By Justin on

            Yup, just like space. Little to no chance of seeing an asteroid, much less hitting one – haven’t forgotten that.
            Also just like space, there’s only a finite amount of approach vectors; if the League knows where the Union came from and kind of where they are now, they can figure out where they’re going.

            What the League admiral would know is the general area in which the Buzzard was spotted… where the Union’s bases are… and where his bases are. From there, it’s just estimating fuel consumption and strategic importance.

            Yes, the Union can plan to fly This Way and make the League guess wrong and sail That Way instead. But a lot of things can go wrong with that, because they can’t control the enemy’s patrol schedule – I believe the KISS principle applies here.
            Not to mention that in the Atlantic proper, there’s a total of about three big island chains, and the League could probably sortie to defend all of them and still match the Union ship for ship.

  11. By Justin on

    Just to recap – our theoretical Fleashooter replacement sports a wooden cover over a wood/steel frame, with a covered cockpit, and a copied BMW 132 (rated at 700+ hp) with a supercharger.

    In which case, we (if not Mallory) happen to have the perfect frame of reference… and ironically, she’s French: http://www.cmchant.com/bloch-mb-700-ww2-fighter

    Reply
    1. By Matthieu on

      This engine is really really optimistic for those planes.

      The supercharger is incredibly complicated to produce (given their current technology). Even if you push things a lot don’t forget that you assume that in less than 5 years they are able to move from brass to highly controlled steel and that they have 87 octane fuel.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrifugal-type_supercharger#/media/File:ATI_ProCharger_Supercharger_Cutaway.jpg

      Are they going to be able to produce blueprints for it? Probably if they have one to work on. Will they be able to produce it now? No way. You need to give them some years to do so.

      Reply
      1. By William Curry on

        What the Allies learned in order to produce the reduction gears for the new ships will supply as lot of the machining knowledge necessary to produce both geared and turbo-superchargers.

        Reply
        1. By Alexey Shiro on

          Sigh. Again: it isn’t as simply as you think to “just reproduce” the superchargers. Without the precise knowledge of exact materials & alloys, exact methods of working, and a lot of high-quality industrial gears – NOT the horde of generally incompetent Lemurians with jury-rigged bad quality tools! – you have the same chances to reproduce the superchargers as to build the space rocket.

          Reply
        2. By Lou Schirmer on

          They could go with a turbo supercharger instead & bypass the gearing issue. If you mount it at a distance from the engine, you also reduce the high heat problems for the impellor, something like the P-47 layout. Exhaust temperatures drop quickly the farther you get from the exhaust manifold. If you put your hand on a car exhaust pipe in front of the muffler, it’s warm but not hot & that’s only about 3 feet from the engine. It doesn’t have to be a high speed one either, if they build it to be a larger, slow turning one, regular engine bearings might work, although roller bearings would be better. Louis Renault patented a centrifugal supercharger in France in 1902, & turbo superchargers were coming into use with aircraft in the early 1920s, so it’s not out of their reach technologically. They just need something to maintain power at altitude if they’re going to have any chance at being competitive with the LOT aircraft.

          Reply
          1. By Lou Schirmer on

            Even if reverse engineering the BMW or Pratt & Whitney engines is too much for them for now (although I think the BMW is doable), they do have the 10 cylinder radial in production now. The engine is maturing & may be uprated to its full potential (430-440 HP) eventually. They could put a simple turbo supercharger on it & with low boost, so as not to stress the engine excessively maybe put it in the 500-550 HP range, but more importantly, maintain its power at high altitude.

          2. By Justin on

            // They just need something to maintain power at altitude if they’re going to have any chance at being competitive with the LOT aircraft.//

            Union/Republic pilots need to develop the tactics that let them keep that power, too.

            We haven’t seen much of the 3rd’s dogfighting style, but Amerika crossed over back when “turn n’ burn” was par for the course – and if the Allies try that, the League’ll chew them up like Zekes against Hellcats. An upgraded engine plus doctrine that favours energy fighting might be enough to level the playing field.

          3. By Steve Moore on

            The Alliance has been in aerial combat for nearly a year, and ground attack against defended targets before that. Compare that to the League, which unless part of the British fleet came over, hasn’t been fighting anyone before or after the transfer. The P-40 and MM’s were pretty evenly matched, and the 3rd Pursuit came out on top. Even dogfighting with Grikbirds, who are energy fighters, probably has helped.

            Secondly, they probably have 3-5 years before the LOT can stage a fleet to the Indian Ocean, maybe 2-3 years to the Carribean. Either place, they’ll need a land base, unless they can build a carrier.

          4. By Justin on

            Yet for the most part the Union’s enjoyed near-total air superiority on both fronts; save for Mallory and Shirley, no living pilots have flown against enemy planes, much less ones that outclass them.
            They’ll need to learn just as much as the League needs to – fly Finger Fours instead of Vics, avoid turning fights, yada yada.

          5. By donald johnson on

            before the League can stage a fleet that will be safe for their own crews they will need to make their ships usable in the Atlantic ocean. Their present fleet is NOT designed for safe operation in the Atlantic but for use in the Mediterranean Sea except for the French fleet. I doubt that there were any German fleet units in the med as they most likely were being used to blockade England along with the French units that were Atlantic capable. They most likely sent what they had already that was Atlantic capable.
            I would not be surprised if the league were not digging a ditch across the Suez as fast as their slaves will let them. This will allow their present fleet to operate in the red sea which is safe for them and will allow them to reach the Indian ocean without having to cross the Atlantic. If so this will take them several years at least. It will also take several years to modify their med fleet to make it Atlantic fleet. The Spanish Destroyers were already Atlantic capable because Spain needs its fleet to be Atlantic capable.

          6. By Lou Schirmer on

            //They’ll need to learn just as much as the League needs to – fly Finger Fours instead of Vics, avoid turning fights, yada yada.//

            Actually, with the P-1Cs, a turning fight is exactly what they want. A lighter, slower fighter will almost always be able to turn inside a heavier, faster opponent. The Italian CR.42 proved that to the British Hurricane pilots dismay at Malta. If the P-1C is what they have if/when the LOT shows up again, they’ll have to adjust their tactics to the fact their only advantages will be the ability to out turn LOT fighters & that they will probably out number them. The Thach Weave may be reinvented by Mallory or some bright cat.

          7. Taylor AndersonsBy Taylor Andersons on

            Actually, the most experienced combat pilot left alive in the Union–complete with experience defeating Zeros in P-40s–is Orrin Reddy. Granted, he hasn’t been featured much lately but that could change…

          8. By Justin on

            // If the P-1C is what they have if/when the LOT shows up again, they’ll have to adjust their tactics to the fact their only advantages will be the ability to out turn LOT fighters & that they will probably out number them. The Thach Weave may be reinvented by Mallory or some bright cat.//

            Sure, Turn n’ Burn’s better than nothing for now, but the Allies shouldn’t double down on it like the OTL Japanese did – lest the Fleashooters end up like Zeroes against Lightnings and Corsairs.

            Remember that there’s equally bright Leaguers that’ll quickly learn to counter with Boom n’ Zoom.
            “Your Macchi’s stronger, so don’t get suckered into a turn with a P-1. Climb up and out, wait for the stronzo to break off, then come back when he’s stalling – or let your wingman do it from behind him.”

          9. By Justin on

            //Actually, the most experienced combat pilot left alive in the Union–complete with experience defeating Zeros in P-40s–is Orrin Reddy. Granted, he hasn’t been featured much lately but that could change…//

            Duly noted – shit, left him out of just one book and I forget he even existed!

            Still, it doesn’t look like Jenks or Lelaa will be able to spare him anytime soon…

          10. By Alexey Shiro on

            //Still, it doesn’t look like Jenks or Lelaa will be able to spare him anytime soon…//

            Well, strategically speaking, going into all this Empire-Dominion mess was the Alliance most costly mistake – instead of expanding their resource base, they actually limited it, and seriously stretched the logistic. I really doubt that Reddy would make such mistake again…

          11. By Justin on

            Seemed like a good idea at the time, didn’t it?

            It works out anyway, since the protagonists are still mostly dominating both fronts. And in the long term, it turns the Pacific into an Allied lake.
            Picture the then-Alliance winning at New Britain and going home… then watching ten books later as the Dommies try again. Or worse – the Dommies letting League raiders through.

          12. By Alexey Shiro on

            //It works out anyway, since the protagonists are still mostly dominating both fronts. And in the long term, it turns the Pacific into an Allied lake.
            //

            Yes, but I doubt Reddy would ever do that again. He already was forced to learn quite fast just to keep pace with Kurokawa (who, let’s admit, was MUCH more capable strategist – which exactly what made him such interesting Bad Guy!), and now he understood that two-front war is pretty much the worst nightmare of any strategist.

            Which made interesting situation about NUS, which are in contact with at least some other powers besides Dominion (more than that, it seems that they are in contact with power that rival Dominion…). I doubt that Reddy would like to be dragged into one more war…

          13. By Charles Simpson on

            Given what they knew at the time, the Grik reeling back from the Alliance, and being a party to the war with the Dominion was Don Hernan’s decision, not Matt Reddy’s.

            Kurokawa may have thought strategically but tragically tended to go off mission when the forces meet. He has panacked multiple times and turned tail and ran. Had Silva not blown it up he would have tried to escape in Nachi.

            They don’t need better aircraft to finish the Grik, the escaping Japanese only have ammunition for one strike, so they don’t balance Alliance air superiority. However Matt must convince the Grik to join the hunt against the League of Tripoli rather than grinding the Grand Swarm and his military to nothing, IMHO.

          14. By Alexey Shiro on

            Kurokawa main problem was the utter lack of correct data about the opponent capabilities. Simply speaking – he have no worthy strategical rdconnaisance or intelligence, and he was completely unable to create one for obvious reason. A few planted agents would gave him everything he need to know to make Alliance history – but the problem was, he has no way to plant said agents. It is pretty hard to put Grik spy into Alliance ranks, after all, and Japanese agent would also be unable to blend in.

            Thats why Kurokawa was constantly unable to correctly estimate the Alliance technical & indistrial capabilities. His personal cowardness, frankly, play very little role in his defeats; if he have correct data, he would won almost all of them.

          15. By Justin on

            The problem was more his delusions and failures of imagination; even with correct data, he’d have rationalized away anything that disproved his existing assumptions.

            Reddy doesn’t have modern aircraft. Oh, he does? Well, he doesn’t have torpedoes – he has those too? Well, he’s only got two destroyers. And now we’ve sunk one! Union guesswork was miles ahead of his throughout the series, if only because group discussion beats autocracy.

          16. By Steve Moore on

            Ego, cowardice or whatever.. eventually you just go to seed.

          17. By donald johnson on

            speaking of going to seed, did they study the plant long enough to determine how it is pollinated. If it is like many other tropical plants it needs a specialized pollinator and can not even pollinate the flowers that are a needed requirement without which the thorns won’t develop. ergo the kudzo plant will be safe from spreading. remember the discussion here on another plant from central america that they were trying to grow in madigasgar in the 1850.s

      2. By Nestor on

        Concur with Matthieu on superchargers. And they can sidestep the issue somewhat by copying the 14 cylinder Pratt & Whitney R-1830’s from their old PBY instead of the 9-cyl BMW’s. R-1830’s have better performance at 1,200 hp. Hopefully they didn’t leave them submerged at the bottom of Baalkpan Bay. :)

        Reply
        1. By Alexey Shiro on

          Er… with the avaliable tech level, their P&W copy would probably tear itself apart at first test run. Again: they have NO trained engineers, NO highly-experienced workforce, and NO technology links & materials required.

          Reply
          1. By Nestor on

            Think of it as gradual progression: If you follow the premise that their original 5-cyl was inspired by the R-1830’s and they’ve already coupled two 5-cyl radials into a double-row 10-cyl for their P-1C’s then beefing up the crankcase further and adding 4 more cylinders may not be too much of a technological leap.

            I’d like to give Lemurians enough credit for their craftsmanship and ingenuity as long as is properly channeled.

          2. By Alexey Shiro on

            If it was that simple, there would be no problem for any country to build the powerful aircraft engines.

            Unfortunately, it isn’t that simple. Just the calculation of all stresses and vibrations would require a large team of skilled mathematics & engineers. Just think about it: it took for USSR two years (two years!!!) just to reproduce Wright R-1820 – and two more years to be able to do that without importing details from USA. And the USSR brought all specification on the engine and have direct US help with copying.

            With all respect, but the Alliance capabilities is FAR, FAR, FAR below the USSR, or even Spain or Poland.

          3. By Charles Simpson on

            Alexey they have one trained engineer Colonel Ben Mallory.

          4. By Alexey Shiro on

            One. And he wasn’t specialized engine engineer, as far as I recall.

            In short – high-powered piston engines are far outside the Alliance capabilities. In a decade, they probably would be able to start working on them, and by late 1950s, they would probably be able to build the engines with enough reliability to put them on a plane.

            But for now, their only way is to put more and more of their primitive engines on plane.

          5. By Nestor on

            Perhaps I should have been more specific, not meant to confuse: I didn’t mean producing a reversed-engineered direct copy of the P&Ws, just a more simplified and less powerful equivalent *inspired* by it, as with their previous radials. Still end up with a slightly upgraded 14-cyl radial using their current expertise without needing to recall Mallory from the frontlines.

          6. By Matthieu on

            It’s still far too optimistic for them. Any change in the design means a complete new analysis and they just don’t have the brains for that.

            If you want an equivalent: between 1914 and 1918 thousands of trained engineers with unlimited supply were tasked to develop new engines. Look at what they’ve been able to do in four years. Now you assume that the alliance will be able to do something much much better in the same timeframe without a single engineer and without any high quality materials…

          7. By donald johnson on

            If they build copy’s of the turbochargers on the P-40 and use good bronze bearings using proper lubrication they should not have too many problems. the bug thing to avoid is excessive rotational speed. so they need to go to a larger impeller in the supercharger and avoid exhaust powered superchargers and place the supercharger directly on the crankshaft. Yes it will be slower and will need be much larger but will not have any belts or gears to go bad.

          8. By Lou Schirmer on

            Exhaust driven turbo superchargers can be used as long as they mount them at a distance so the exhaust charge has a chance to cool. Like the P-47 system. You don’t have to have high temp metals & bearings then. To keep rotational stress down they would do as you said, make the impeller bigger. Exhaust gases cool rapidly to reasonable temps. Just check your car exhaust pipe. With an exhaust driven supercharger you don’t have to worry about gearing at all.

          9. By Matthieu on

            “the bug thing to avoid is excessive rotational speed. so they need to go to a larger impeller in the supercharger and avoid exhaust powered superchargers and place the supercharger directly on the crankshaft. ”

            That’s exactly the point: it’s completely impossible for them to know that. Don’t forget that superchargers were even secret (well, many people knew that they existed but all internal components were highly secret!). Save for specialized engineers, they won’t even really understand how the thing works (they don’t have the formulas to link speed/pressure/temp and so on).

          10. By donald j johnson on

            My feeling is that after they try it as they are and have some bad accidents with parts flying Etc they will try a simpler method and they will probably come down to putting the impeller on the crankshaft because that is close to where the carburetor is or fuel injection if they have determined that and I believe that the P-40 had fuel injection so they should know what it is. Without accurate knowledge they will have to develop it and to develop it they will need to work with what they do have which is a working model on the P40. They are not stupid so they will know that things don’t always work exactly the same with copies they already know what kind of troubles they had with the steam engines and boilers. It will be a long slow development but would be even longer and slower if they don’t try. They love to try new things so they’re going to be trying lots of things

          11. By Lou Schirmer on

            They had been in use on aircraft & automobiles for 20 years by then, so not so secret. What WAS secret were the new designs, which as you say were highly developed & required high strength materials, fine tolerances & complex gearing. A simple, non-geared supercharger is possible however, either direct, belt (which with different sized pulleys is a simple “gearing”) or remote exhaust driven.

      3. By Steve Moore on

        I agree, things would need to move along for these engines to be developed. But let’s reflect on a few things.

        Bernie’s turned out some pretty impressive torpedoes. Lot of technical work there. Naval artillery and gas-operated machine guns require some talent as well.
        The RRP has 30 years of post-1914 industrial development building steam locomotives, monitors, Derby guns and Maxims, not to mention the Cantets.
        Reddy just captured 200 Japanese, and thousands of ‘yard’ Griks in Zanzibar. Bushman (aka Kurokawa) and Muriname built some pretty impressive planes, in less than 2 years.
        Even the Empire has an optics industry, where close tolerances are key.
        I’d consider several of the Destroyermen ‘seat-of-the-pants engineers’, not to mention the Canopus mechanic that came in with the prisoner ship.

        All in all, I think they’ve got a chance at knocking out a simple one-stage compressor, and build a curve to better models.

        Reply
      4. By Matt White on

        They wont be making a modern ball bearing ceramic centrifugal blower. I just got back from my yearly tour of the Air Force Museum in Wright Pat and they had forced induction examples of engines dating back to the 20’s. The blowers were huge, clearly lower pressure affairs but they worked and the power gains even with those were impressive over a purely naturally aspirated engine. https://media.defense.gov/2016/Aug/16/2001606687/670/394/0/160816-F-IO108-005.JPG

        The weird thing about the prototype turbo liberty is that the exhaust manifold for the turbo is really inefficient. It was apparently a successful design though.

        Its a far cry from the supercharger in the P-40 and especially from the unit in the DB601 that powers the German not-109s so we shouldn’t make comparisons to those far more advanced engines. The 132 is an early 30’s design and the 700hp model wasn’t even the most powerful one available. I don’t see why it couldn’t be copied. Obviously there will be teething issues and QC issues with the steel and seals. Anything high temp and high speed requires fairly exacting QC but with three examples to work off of I think the ICE house can get reliable copies working.

        Reply
  12. By Alexey Shiro on

    Just a fun thought… what if SHE get transferred?

    https://orig14.deviantart.net/e88d/f/2011/310/1/7/japanese_kawasaki_kx_03_flying_boat_by_kara_alvama-d4fae5h.png

    Overall length;162m, Span;180m, Height;35.4m, Wing area;1,150square meter,
    Gross weight;460ton, Range;18,520km, Payload;900 soldiers with normal equipments,
    Engines; Ne201 turbo prop engine(7,000hp + static thrust 900kg/each engine)×12(total 132,000hp),
    Ne330 jet engine×6(total equivalent 7,920hp), crews;24.

    Reply
      1. By Steve Moore on

        Is it just my screen being too wide and stretchy, or do the engines look just a LITTLE small?

        How about air freighting one of the mines down to the RRP and see if they can copy them? Still thinking about putting a cork up the Grik Empire’s collective bum. Or maybe giving the RRP a squadron or two of P-1C’s to copy & train on? Don’t really think the Alliance has 20 years to wait for the RRP to develop their own planes. They’re already copying Donaghey’s Nancy, why not build Nancys with double-row radials and P-1Cs?

        Reply
        1. Taylor AndersonsBy Taylor Andersons on

          The Cantets might already give the P-1s (at least) a run for their money. The Republic has had aviation for a while, just hasn’t developed it as fully as they “should” (from our and the Allies’ perspective) over the last decade or more. Same old story–with a twist. From their perspective, flying around where the Grik might see them might draw unwanted attention. The Nig Taak has had his hands tied until recently by a parsimonious and isolationist Senate.

          Reply
          1. By Alexey Shiro on

            Er… they came from 1914. In 1914, the heavier-than-air aviation was still considered more an oddity, than respected combat force. Especially by German Navy.

          2. By Matthieu on

            Stupid question: is there oil in south africa?

            Without they can produce planes but they can’t fly them.

          3. By Charles Simpson on

            Hmm, there are many captured British engineers and only SMS Amerika’s engineers. So why a German prototype? Perhaps the German engineer had a brother an aircraft engineer?

            Why no internal combustion land transport Trucks would be very useful?

          4. By Steve Moore on

            If Muriname comes in on the side of Esshk (perhaps presented with a choice of being an ally or being dinner), Cantets won’t be much good. Remember, the Japanese planes, like most 1930’s era planes, are built to operate from rough fields. I don’t think that Esshk is going to take too long to realize that the Alliance does not have the level of air support he saw in Madagascar and Zanzibar. Even a Clipper raid or two with incendiaries would take a chunk out of Grik troop concentrations. P1C’s and Nancys also have well-developed radio links.

    1. By Steve Moore on

      Transferred in from a world where hopefully the Japanese were US allies, as in the first war.

      Reply
  13. By Charles Simpson on

    How hard will it be to in jam Savoie’s rudder? See:

    https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bretagne_Brassey%27s.png

    As you can see her sisters had a single centerline rudder COMPLETELY below the water line. Thus a dry dock likely needed her 544′ 7″ length 88.25 foot beam should fit Tarrakaan Island’s 100 by 800 foot well. Ugh were not the Island SPDs designed to take aboard the smaller carriers ie 850′ length 150′ beam?

    Reply
    1. By Alexey Shiro on

      For such limited repair, they may use cofferdam around her stern.

      Reply
    2. By Lou Schirmer on

      Charles, I’ve got some hires deck plans for the Bretagne class. Should I post them on the DD wiki?

      Reply
        1. By Lou Schirmer on

          Yes, that’s where I got them, but I can’t get to the site now for some reason.

          Reply
  14. By Joe Thorsky on

    “It’s not what happens, but how the leader sees what happens,
    that counts.”…
    “Books represent the accumulated knowledge and wisdom of the ages, available for pennies on the dollar. Books preserve the greatest thoughts, the greatest ideas, and the greatest insights of human experience.”…
    “And reading is one of the best, most time-tested avenues to leadership experience. If other people’s experiences is the best teacher, books are the best transmitter of that experience.”…
    From “Launching a Leadership Revolution”
    by Chris Brady and Orin Woodward

    A Speculative Inquiry
    Why was there only a LOT transfer and not a second
    corresponding GB-Commonwealth/Czarist Russian asset
    transfer event that could have simultaneously occurred as well?
    Is this the reason why the LOT is working and operating in
    the shadows and background? They always and constantly are
    fearfully looking behind themselves and over their shoulders
    in dread of something or someone from somewhere, somewhen?
    Isn’t now as good time as any for Taylor to introduce
    the “Dogs of War” into this no holds barred Katfight?
    A good “FIDO” could prove to be “Leigh Light” illuminative
    and indispensable to the Alliance. Also, satiating a craving
    of “Squid” seems to be both in/on order here.

    Legacy of Washington Naval Treaty
    “Article 22 of the 1930 Treaty of London relating to submarine warfare declared international law (the so-called “cruiser rules”) applied to submarines as well as to surface vessels. Also, unarmed merchant vessels which did not demonstrate “persistent refusal to stop…or active resistance to visit or search”[3] could not be sunk without the ships’ crews and passengers being first delivered to “a place of safety” (for which lifeboats did not qualify, except under particular circumstances).[4] The 1936 treaty confirmed Article 22 of the 1930 treaty remained in force, and “all others Powers [were invited] to express their assent to the rules embodied in this Article”.[5][6] This became known as the London Submarine Protocol, and over thirty-five nations eventually did subscribe to it, including the U.S., Britain, Germany, and Japan.[7] It was this Protocol which was used at the post war Nuremberg Trial of Karl Dönitz for ordering unrestricted submarine warfare. These regulations did not prohibit arming merchantmen,[8] but arming them, or having them report contact with submarines (or raiders), made them de facto naval auxiliaries and removed the protection of the cruiser rules.[9] This made restrictions on submarines effectively moot.[10]”….
    From

    “Churchill was right when he talked about “the proper
    application of overwhelming force.”…
    “Thus the key task for convoy escorts, whether surface or aerial,
    was to prevent enemy submarines from launching their torpedoes
    at the flock of merchantmen in the first place.
    The later introduction of acoustic or homing torpedoes, or of much more sophisticated U-Boats near the end of the war, did not alter that
    basic fact.”…

    “Among those many advances, four were described:”…
    Introduction of long range and heavily equipped bombers
    that could stay with the convoys all the way,…
    Development and mass production of centimetric radar,…
    The Hedgehog mortar and it’s derivatives the Squid and Limbo
    Weapons Systems,…
    Deployment of the hard hitting convoy support groups;
    Aka- Hunter Killer Task Forces built around Bogue Class
    escort carriers and new types of purpose built corvettes and
    frigates”.…
    From Engineers of Victory by Paul Kennedy
    Is this where Taylor’s next is going?

    Reply
    1. By Alexey Shiro on

      //Why was there only a LOT transfer and not a second
      corresponding GB-Commonwealth/Czarist Russian asset
      transfer event that could have simultaneously occurred as well?//

      Because transfer mechanism are clearly disinterested in politics.

      Reply
      1. By Joe Thorsky on

        Alexey
        Irrespective of the Politics involved.
        Can’t intimate that the event (it) was just
        another case of “Spontaneous Selection.”

        Reply
  15. By Justin on

    We know aluminum’s out of the question unless the Union finds a natural cryolite deposit… but what about synthetic cryolite?

    Aluminum oxide they can get from refining bauxite, hydrofluoric acid from fluorine and sulfur, and sodium hydroxide from electrolysis of basic table salt. They should probably interrogate Bradford once he gets back from Africa.

    Reply
    1. By donald j johnson on

      Maybe what they really need is to get a hold of that Handbook of chemistry and physics that was on the ship that just transferred along with an old radio amateur handbook just spark up the radio technology

      Reply
    2. By Alexey Shiro on

      I think, steel is more simple & viable solution for Alliance’s aircraft program than aluminium.

      P.S. Hovewer, with a lot of magnium & a few of aluminium (9% to be precise) you could have Elektron – quite efficient alloy.

      Reply
      1. By Lou Schirmer on

        Due to the scarcity of aluminum, even Elektron would have to be used sparingly. It could be used as a leading edge wing sheath, or where high strength & low weight are needed. The rest of the aircraft could be steel stringers & wing spars with plywood frames, wing ribs & fuselage & wing skins.

        Lets not forget that magnesium burns readily & can’t be extinguished. Several types of incendiary bombs were designed using Electron.

        Reply
        1. By Alexey Shiro on

          Yes, that’s the problem. On the other hands, considering that the average Alliance pilot, downed above sea is 100% doomed… I think, that Alliace could just use Japan philosophy “forget the durability, if the plane could not land on carrier it’s as good as destroyed”.

          Reply
        2. By Lou Schirmer on

          Here’s a thought. Some enterprising soul should come up with an inflatable raft attached to the pilots harness. That way, if they bail out over water, when they get near the water, they activate the CO2 cartridge to inflate the raft which stays attached to the harness, so it’s right there when they hit the water. They should be able to get into the raft before the first flashie gets there, unless they’re wounded. The raft could be made with thick material & have multiple air pockets in case of leaks or punctures. This would give the pilots at least some chance over water & nearby ships could pick them up. If I was a pilot there, I’d be giving this quite a bit of thought.

          Reply
          1. By Alexey Shiro on

            I’m afraid, it wouldn’t work against flashies. Let’s not forget, they have a tendency to bump even a boats… so inflatable raft would be only a very short-therm solution.

          2. By Lou Schirmer on

            True, but short term might be enough to get a boat to them if they bail out near a ship.

          3. By Charles Simpson on

            Remember in Crusade when the PBY inflated a raft, the flashies tore it toshreds before any one could get in.

      1. By Steve Moore on

        Wonder if the Leets gasket material could be formulated as a glue; seems to resist the moisture.

        Reply
    3. By Justin on

      Both excellent points, but Matt’s pointed out that steel’s usually too heavy for large aircraft, and that wood only works if you’ve got airplane glue that can resist the heat and Gs involved in dogfighting.

      What about nickel, beryllium or titanium?

      Reply
      1. By Lou Schirmer on

        Tube steel can be fairly light, if you use a thin gauge. They could put a bamboo core in it with resin glue to up its strength & durability.

        Forget Titanium. In the 1960s Lockheed had lots of problems with that making the SR-71. Nickel & beryllium are usually used in small amount to make alloys with other metals, like copper & steel.

        Reply
          1. By Alexey Shiro on

            Side note: despite a lot of urban legends, Ho.229 ISN’T “stealthy”. Her forms gave her a bit of radar reduction, but her steel frames under wooden skin are a real mess of corner reflectors.

          2. By Nestor on

            True, the intent of the Weimar brothers was mainly to meet RLM speed and performance requirements. Only long after the war they started to muse about possible stealth capabilities.

          3. By Alexey Shiro on

            Exactly. The stealth theory wasn’t even understood in 1940s. UK, Germany and USA tinkered with the idea of “radar-absorbing paint”, but without understanding of the theory of beam reflection and dispercion, it was only marginally useful.

      2. By Alexey Shiro on

        //Both excellent points, but Matt’s pointed out that steel’s usually too heavy for large aircraft, and that wood only works if you’ve got airplane glue that can resist the heat and Gs involved in dogfighting.//

        Well, the Soviet engineers were quite able to build steel planes in 1930s. In 1939, the “Stal-7” twin-engine plane (with all-steel hull) set a world speed record on 5000 km flight. She was capable of 450 km/h, could climb up to 10000 meters and could carry about 12 peoples or several tons of cargo. And her range was quite good, too.

        http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/cw1/stal7/stal7-1.gif

        If the Union would be able to build something like “Stal” series, they would have a really good medium bomber (for 1930s, of course).

        //What about nickel, beryllium or titanium?//

        They are costly… and the titanium is really hard to produce in sufficient quantites. As far as I knew, for quite a long time only USSR was able to produce enough titanium to use it even on submarine hulls.

        Reply
        1. By Justin on

          Go figure… say, a Stal-8 might work as a main fighter too.

          Reply
  16. By Lou Schirmer on

    I was curious to see what a P-1 would look like with an enclosed cockpit, so went & drew it.
    At the speeds they’re flying at, the pilot is essentially being asked to fly & fight a high performance aircraft while in a tornado. The enclosed cockpit would make things a bit easier for them. This is a modification of one of Taylors pictures from the Art section…back when you could save the full sized picture.

    http://loupy59.deviantart.com/art/P-1D-Design-Study-696621134

    Reply
  17. By Joe Thorsky on

    Lou-Guys

    If you’re fishing for the big fish don’t you
    need to attract them by tempestesting them with
    the smaller fish first.

    You’re are partially right in your assessments,
    but I was asking for a Taylored made Destroyermen’s
    aka specifically Silva’s answer/response to the
    growing submarine threat to Alliance shipping.
    A marriage of biology to technology would seepy be the ideal answer.

    There’s a strong possibly of Axis Submarine aircraft carriers
    being part of the Lot’s sub fleet?
    As reference see- I-400-class submarine

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-400-class_submarine>

    Reply

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *