2,747 COMMENTS :

    1. By Matthieu on

      Helium is in short supply and it’s not a new problem. The msin issue is that the global supply of helium on earth is very limited and it’s incredibly complicated to keep helium.

      We need helium (a by product mainly of gas production) for incredibly important tool such as medical scanner or to look for leaks in space ships… At the same time humanity is wasting this limited supply to make stupid jokes or to inflate baloons.

      Reply
      1. By Lou Schirmer on

        How about hydrogen balloons? That way when anyone gets stupid, it’s Darwin in action. I wonder if it affects the vocal cords the same way HE does.

        Reply
        1. By Matt on

          Unfortunately our society has decided to protect the stupid from themselves through warning labels and regulating what you can and can’t put in baloons. /S

          Reply
  1. By matthieu on

    Floating mines

    Dear all

    In the last few books I have not seen anything related to floating mines. Most people don’t know but they are one of the most powerful low cost weapon in any arsenal. They are easy to produce and remain a danger even after a long time.

    The main categories are:
    – “electric” mines: they are dispersed around a harbor and controlled from there. Friendly ships can run above. They were used at many places including the canal zone
    – drifting mines: they were release and moved with tide. Low accuracy but a huge danger for a chasing fleet
    – moored mines, the most common ones.

    Mines are even more efficient once you can disperse them by plane. you can use a slow and outdated one as long as they operate by night. Zeppelins can be really good at that!

    The alliance can use chains of drifting mines (just mines attached together so as to be sure that a moving ship will pull the rope and the mine will detonate).

    ———————————————————————-

    Now the funny part: you know that Japanese were disgusting and cunning rascals who deserve to suffer horrendously before dying. Well, this is at least what the crew of the battleship Richelieu was thinking in 1945: after surrender the ship entered Singapore but a forgotten mine detonated 17 meters from the ship.

    When the British admiral asked if the ship was ok, the answer was “watertight, wine leak”

    Those bastards had just hit the winery (bottom of the ship, abeam turret I).

    It leaded to some comedy on the bridge (the text is historic)

    (commanding officer): Report
    (damage control officer): damage parties investigating

    (damage control officer): no hull breach, integrity maintained, watertight
    (from damage control center): leaks reported on detectors
    (commanding officer): who’s making fun of whom? (“de qui se moque-t-on?”) which is the polite version of “what the fuck?”
    (damage control parties): wine tanks broken, investigating

    According to some legends, the whole damage control party tried to do its best to soak up damage, probably with a lot of volunteers.

    https://books.google.fr/books?id=06a9AwAAQBAJ&pg=PT354&lpg=PT354&dq=mine+richelieu+singapour&source=bl&ots=143XrtwEjU&sig=EIa9WaiXJMo2gZsuckpIsTGyBVQ&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjRtu2eoNHUAhUFZlAKHVaoAu4Q6AEIRDAE#v=onepage&q=mine%20richelieu%20singapour&f=false

    Reply
    1. By Alexey Shiro on

      //Mines are even more efficient once you can disperse them by plane. you can use a slow and outdated one as long as they operate by night. Zeppelins can be really good at that!//

      Hm… Actually, an interesting proposition. Zeppelin could hover over the water and just accurately drop the mine on pre-designated point.

      Reply
      1. By Alexey Shiro on

        Actually, the mines are VERY potent weapon – for both the superior and inferior navies. In World War I, the Russian Imperial Navy pioneered active minelaying (you know, that submarine minelayers were invented in Russia, right? :) ), and deal quite a lot of damage to superior German Navy. The RN was so impressed, that actually asked for russian consultants to formulate a new mining doctrine.

        In World War 2, the USN used active mining quite efficiently to disrupt the Japanese shipping. The IJN don’t paid enough attention to mine defense before the war (because, as in case with submarine defense, it was assumed that Japanese communication lines would be far behind the defense perimeter and USN would just be unable to hit them), and paid a great price in warship and transports. At the end of the war, the USA strated the most impressive minelaying operation in history, using heavy bombers to saturate Japanese home water with so much mines, that Japanese actually stopped trying to sweep them – they calculated, that damage would be actually less, if the ships would just rely on luck and go through the minefield, than if they would try to remove the minefield.

        So, mines are enormously potent weapon. And in Devil’s Due they were used quite efficiently)

        Reply
        1. By Matt on

          I’m pretty sure Donald’s reply was sarcasm. Is the spoiler embargo still in effect?

          Reply
          1. By Lou Schirmer on

            Don’t know. Steve Moore & Matthieu were the only ones w/o books. Don’t know if they were able to get e-copies from Amazon to read before the books showed up.

          2. By Justin on

            Matthieu got his a few days ago. We could lift the embargo at the end of the week, or wait until the two-week mark.

          3. By matthieu on

            ebooks from amazon? Come on, i like books. Ok, i ‘ve got a reader but not a Kindle, i don’t like proprietary systems

            Well, for me it’s ok, I’m at page 15 but I need to work today. Shit!

          4. By Steve Moore on

            O frabjous day, Amazone claims my book will arrive by 8pm at an address now 350 miles away. In addition, they have created a new 4-digit zip code addition that goes to neither my PO box or street address. Anticipating that by the time I return to CT next week, it will have been returned for no deliverable address. I will send them a correction, hopefully it will take, and in the beanwhile, will see if they have graciously gifted me an electronic version in a format I can’t read. Yes, sarcasm, but getting a little tired of the whole address thing. Starting with the last couple of orders, having them sent to my brother in law’s business.

            Regarding mines, ideal weapon to bottle up the Zambezi. Mix in a few scuttled Grik Indiamen (USN crews evacuated by PT, sort of like St. Nazaire). Mining Zanzibar harbor by PT at night might be a bit more chancy.

          5. By Matt on

            Steve I like physical books as well and intend to get a physical copy when it shows up at the local bookstore, I like to support small businesses. But to get my fix in I quickly got it through the Google play store on my phone. It’s cheaper than the physical copy, as it should be and be had anywhere you have wifi or cell signal. If you have an Android phone it’s that easy as they all come with the play books app. I’d recommend doing that for a few bucks now and getting a physical copy once you are able.

          6. By Steve Moore on

            Well, I’m going to be shifting over to electronic books eventually, just haven’t decided on the format. I like books on CD from the library, but their selection is not mine. I do a lot of driving (yeah, the 350 miles which is half freeway and half backwoods roads) and having ad-free and reading-free entertainment is nice, so the audio component is key. The car radio also plays MP3, so there’s that as well. Might give the Amazon Audible a try, don’t see how they can screw that up unless they send it to the Destroyerman universe…

          7. By Justin on

            I’d go with an epub format, or at least something that can be converted to it – then you can read it on any phone or browser (that has the right app/add-on, of course).

          8. By Lou Schirmer on

            Might as well get the Kindle for PC (free) since you already have an Amazon account. Don’t need to buy an actual Kindle at all. I got it because there was a book I wanted to read which was only available as an e-copy. Worked like a charm.

            I do prefer an actual book however.

          9. By Justin on

            Whatever you do, stay away from the audiobooks.

            All the Cats have bad Filipino accents… except for Keje, who sounds like George Takei for some reason.

    2. By Justin on

      Might want to start reading Devil’s Due – you’ll find an answer there.

      Reply
    3. By Lou Schirmer on

      //Those bastards had just hit the winery (bottom of the ship, abeam turret I). //

      You know Matthieu, if the Germans had just threatened the vineyards when they invaded, you guys would have risen up in righteous fury & destroyed them. WW 2 would have been over before it started. C’est la guerre. :)

      Reply
  2. By Justin on

    Okay – so if three turbines require eight boilers, would four turbines require ten boilers, or twelve?

    Reply
      1. By Justin on

        Depends on whose numbers are correct. According to the book, the new turbines rate somewhere between 23-26K shp each – three to a CL gives 69-78K with eight boilers.

        Lou thinks the numbers are off, and it’s 23-26K for both turbines of a DD. Which would be more like 11-13K and 33-39K, admittedly closer to the book’s 28 knot estimate.

        Either way, it’s eight boilers powering three screws. Arithmetically speaking, it’s eleven boilers for four screws, but you can’t exactly fit eleven into a two-by-two configuration. Hence the question.

        Reply
        1. By donald j johnson on

          If they did any copying of the Japanese Destroyer which had two turbines of 26khp each and 3 boilers then all the numbers maybe messed up as the Japanese boilers appear to be at least twice as efficient kneading only three boilers for 52 K hp instead of four for 26k hp.

          Reply
          1. By Lou Schirmer on

            The Japanese boilers were probably running superheated at high pressure as most DDs were at that time. That lets you get away with fewer boilers for higher horse power rated turbines.
            Probably using a lot of what Mr. Curry talks about below.

            BTW what is a “deareator” anyway, something to get air out of water?

          2. By Lou Schirmer on

            William Curry’s post below.

            //The steam necessary to operate auxiliaries like deareators, pumps, fan etc. as well as keep the pipe warm is know as the parasitic load of the plant. //

          3. By William Curry on

            Deareators heat the feed water with agitation to remove dissolved oxygen in it. Primary means of corrosion control for most boiler plants. The other main point is to be the pH of the feed water and condensate above 7.0 (generally around 8.0 to 8.5) as ferrous metals will only corrode in water that has a ph less than 7.0 The water in the pressure vessel will be around 11.0 Caustics of some sort are usually part of your water treatment program. If your running a steam engine you prefer at least some small degree of superheat to prevent condensation in the high pressure cylinder or the first stage of the turbine.

        2. By Lou Schirmer on

          Might need to ask Taylor which numbers are correct, 23-26k each turbine or 23-26k for the pair.
          The numbers are correct for a pair giving us 11-13k each for the DDs, but may be different for the CL. You never know with those wily Tejanos.

          Reply
          1. By donald johnson on

            If clones of US turbines then 26k for pair is correct, if clones of Jap turbines then will be 26k each’ In the book I suspect that they may be trying to clone the Jap because they mention having problems with boiler tubing. End of chapter 4.

          2. By Lou Schirmer on

            I’m going with clones of the current US DD turbines & boilers (with mods). The problems they’re having are with the current build boiler tubes & low pressure (relatively) steam. The Jap boilers are probably running twice the pressure & considerably higher temps than the US ones, so while they may be trying to clone them, it’ll probably be a while before they do. They would be nice in a battle cruiser or fleet carrier though.

          3. By Matt on

            My assumption is that they are going to be the same as Walker’s boilers. They are having enough trouble as it is keeping those reliabke. Trying to copy higher pressure designs right now would probably end in failure.

            How do Kampon boilers work? I can’t find a lot of info on them. Are they based on the yarrow type or a completely new setup the Japanese invented? How they work is going to effect how long it takes to study and adapt them. If they are upgraded yarrow types then their construction and operation will be intuitive for everyone. If not then there will be a bit of a learning curve.

          4. By William Curry on

            Let me read the report and I’ll comment on it.

          5. By Matt on

            So I did a quick scan of the report Alexi provided. A lot of it is over my head, I work in IT, not boilers. But the tone of the paper is pretty telling. Seems ONI had a very low opinion of the systems the Japanese had in place. Lots of inefficiencies and questionable solutions to problems everyone seemed to have worked out fine.

            Am I right to say that Walker and other wickes boats used saturated but not superheated steam? If so incorporating the Japanese superheater will surely be an improvement but I’m wondering how much and how it would impact reliability. The report discusses reliability issues with the Japanese setup.

          6. By donald j johnson on

            Reliability issues on a long-term reliability problem are not the same as reliability issues on a short term reliability problem and it could be that the reliability that they were discussing is long term reliability versus short-term and believe me in a combat ship is too short term reliability this more important than the long-term reliability because if they’re worried about something going to break in 10 years we’re sure something is going to break in two weeks they’ll ignore the 10-year problem and fix the 2-week problem and just go on and fight

          7. By William Curry on

            The data sources are inconsistent for the Wickes class on the use of superheated steam. A least one source says they used saturated steam, but that may be after a WWII refit for convoy duty where the plants were derated. I doubt that the ships as originally constructed used saturated steam in the turbines as this would expose them to condensation in the first stages. Also the Wickes class was not uniform in their plants. Yarrow boilers typically had a radiant superheater tucked up under the steam drum, but some of this type had convection superheaters in the bundle between the riser and downcommer tubes. That arrangement was common for Admiralty 3 drum boilers in British service. I’ve not been able to find the exact data for the Walker’s boilers. According to most sources the reason the ships were taken out of service early and then scrapped was boiler problems. The boilers in the Walker were obsolescent at the time they were installed. I suspect that they went with them was that they were available quickly during the great war. Because of the expansion of the straight water tubes as they heat up, the steam drum is not anchored to anything and supported solely by the tubes. That is a recipe for a short life, especially if the operators didn’t take time to warm the boiler up slowly. I suspect, based on my experience, that Yarrow boilers were prone to leaks where the tubes were rolled onto the steam drum. Typically to bring a cold boiler on line, it’s isolated from the header and lit off in low fire to warm up the tubes and refractory and slowly build up steam in the drum until its equal to the pressure in the header. If the header and the steam system is cold, once the boiler is up to pressure steam in bled into the header and system section by section to warm it up. Often drains are opened and the warm up condensate load is dumped until the line is warmed up and then pressurized. Turbines also, if cold, have to be spooled at low speed for 30 minutes to an hour until it’s warmed up. If you get in a hurry you will cause damage from unequal expansion or water hammer. Liquid slugs of water moving around in a steam system are dangerous.

          8. By William Curry on

            The report on the IJN boilers makes the case that the Kampon boilers were inefficient for the cubic volume they occupied. The boilers were also inefficient on a pounds of steam per square foot of heating surface as well. The physical layout of the boilers restricted the flow of combustion gases through the tubes and the air heaters restricted air flow to the furnace. The boilers were subject to scaling due to poor water treatment and certain design features, which also made corrosion on the fire side quite likely. The boilers operators were also not well trained and the layout of the boilers made operation and maintenance difficult. The report also stated that the designers of the boilers were probably unfamiliar with boiler operation (I’ve seen that before). Overall they produced around half the amount of steam per pound of fuel burned compared to USN boilers.

          9. By Matt on

            William, you make it sound like the kampon boilers wouldn’t be an upgrade to the yarrow and possibly a downgrade. Am I reading that right?

          10. By William Curry on

            The Kampon boilers would not be much of an upgrade to the Yarrow if at all. The latest book indicates that improvements have been made in the Yarrows plus the crews are use to the Yarrow design. I’d stick with the Yarrow over the Kampon. The report was however comparing the Kampon to the latest boilers in US ships not the 25 year old Yarrow.

    1. By William Curry on

      The number of boilers is irrelevant to the power output of the turbines. That’s controlled by the absolute pressure and temperature drop across the turbine and the quantity of steams in pounds per hour. The extra boilers may be there for redundancy or to operate auxiliaries. The steam necessary to operate auxiliaries like deareators, pumps, fan etc. as well as keep the pipe warm is know as the parasitic load of the plant. I suspect some of the additional boiler capacity is going to operate steam turbine driven generators. The book mentions “better electrics” for the new cruiser. It also doesn’t state weather the new plant is operating at a higher pressure and superheat, but it mention that there have been improvements in boiler technology and efficiency. One possible way is to increase the efficency of the condensers by improving either the heat transfer in the tubes, increasing the number of tubes or the water flow through the tubes by using a more powerful condenser water pump, which would be driven by steam turbine. Also doing away with a pressurized fire room and going to a pressurized windbox on each boiler, each with it’s own forced draft fan. Adding induced draft fans in addition to FD fans would also increase the output of the boilers. Additionally the superheaters could be improved either by enlargement or relocation or possibly the addition of separately fired superheaters. Also additional stages could be added to the turbines. Rifling the tubes of either the boiler or the condenser is a possibility. So to is adding pre-heaters for feed water to recover heat from the stack gases.

      Reply
      1. By Lou Schirmer on

        //Rifling the tubes of either the boiler or the condenser is a possibility. //

        Does that increase the heat transfer by increasing the surface area of the tube? Or is it something different?

        Reply
        1. By William Curry on

          Yes. It also induces turbulent flow which helps with heat transfer. On fire Tube boilers, turbulators which slow the passage of the hot combustion cases are sometimes inserted in the fire tubes to increase heat transfer. However you don’t want to reduce the temperature of the stack gas to the point that the water vapor in it condenses in the breechings, uptakes or stacks as this will cause corrosion, especially if the fuel your burning has much sulfur in it. Think #6 fuel oil.

          Reply
  3. By donald j johnson on

    Has anyone here heard of Cam ships. These are essentially ships that carried Fighters that were abandoned after use because they had no place to land. Could this system be used in the destroyermen series because after all of fighter is a lot less expensive than a ship.

    Reply
    1. By Alexey Shiro on

      No. Flashies.

      The idea of CAM (Catapult Assisted Merchants) was, that even single fighter could be used to chase away or shot down Axis reconnaisanse plane, thus covering the convoy. The cost of losing a fighter was considered acceptable, as long as pilot could be recovered.

      But in Destroyermen’s world, flashies would make any kind of pilot recovery highly improbable. Griks could possibly use such concept (“we need a few brave Uul!”), but I really doubt that Alliance could.

      Reply
      1. By donald j johnson on

        I was thinking more on the order of the single-seat seaplane Fighters that could be recovered

        Reply
        1. By Alexey Shiro on

          I’m afraid, that “Nancy” would not be able to chase away even the oldest League’s aircrafts. Basically, the Alliance would need a completely new seaplane fighter for that – and this is the area where French and Japanese have MUCH more experience.

          Reply
          1. By Steve Moore on

            The French and Japanese of ‘our’ world. Unless a squadron or two transit through, it’s just the few they brought with them. And since they would have been within cover of land-based air, as well as fighting against land-based air, I don’t think there would be too many available.

          2. By Steve Moore on

            However, it would be nice if in December 1945, hopefully after the Union makes friends with the NUS and has planes flying in the Carribean, Fred and Kari make contact with Flight 19, and help add a flight of TBM Avengers to the Union forces. Supposedly a fuel slick from the PBM Mariner sent looking for them was found, but, hey, if that came through too, so much the merrier!

            Better than Oog and Bloog from Alpha Centuri, whose UFO was sucked into a transit because Oog wanted to prove he was a hot stick…

          3. By donald j johnson on

            Would love to see that happen also but unfortunately known people and known boats and known aircraft are not transferred do to rules set forth by Taylor. But that does not preclude flight 20 from the same date and another alternate reality from coming through or a lost space shuttle from another alternate reality thats attempting to land in Florida

        2. By Justin on

          Don’t bother with a converted P1-B either, the Fleashooter’s becoming obsolete too. The Allies (Union and Republic alike) need a modern airframe yesterday.

          Reply
          1. By Alexey Shiro on

            Problem is, modern airframes are outside their capabilities. And would be for at least a decade more.

            Simply speaking – it is not enough to just have several manuals to design and build 1930s fighter aircraft. Those guys are complicated. They required a whole team of good aircraft engineers to calculate and design. And a lot of good materials, tools and experienced workers to build.

            Currently, Alliance is completely unable to design something like that. They have no aircraft engineers to be worth mentioning in context of such project.

          2. By Justin on

            Well, we know the Republic’s building a blue water navy – not a spoiler, we’ve been talking about it since February – and that implies a healthy base of naval designers, architects and engineers with conventional expertise. It’s not much of a reach to imagine a (considerably) smaller corps of aerospace engineers.

            I’m not saying they and Mallory combined will crank out Lightnings or Mustangs, but it’s something… and they do have P-40 and Beaufort wreckage to work with. A working production line of wooden Blenheims and P-30s/P-35s, maybe P-36s, seems doable by mid-1945.

          3. By Alexey Shiro on

            Definitely not by mid-1945. You are talking about the planes, which took several years to just design by the much more industrial-capable nations. IMHO, but Alliance wouldn’t be able to have any (expect of some transfer) 1940s planes at least until 1948-1949. Simply too complicated tech.

          4. By matthieu on

            Not only the tech is far too complicated but also the more complicated the tech the more complicated the building method and materials.

            The first planes needed wood/fabric. Once you move to metal you’ll need aluminium, duralumin, specific alloys and so on. You’ll also need some highly specific components that you just can’t build as nobody in this world is producing the basic materials (tungsten, manganese, titanium, you’ve got dozens of them).

            They are going to face a wall: to go further they need at the same time to re-discover the method, the tools and to produce the components.

          5. By Justin on

            Pretty sure that instead of trying to break through the “lack of rare metal” barrier, they’ll try to go around it – for example, as noted in Distant Thunders, the deHav Mosquito was almost completely wooden.

            Mr. Anderson’s also mentioned a possible wood-laminated P-36 (albeit after a very lengthy R&D process) a few pages back.

            At any rate, the Allies will have their air power by the start of the League War… if only because our author knows we’ll eventually tire of Fleashooters being downed like passenger pigeons.

          6. By Alexey Shiro on

            Frankly, for short-time perspective the best Alliance could do is to fight the aerial war of attrition. With general hope that League would be out of planes faster, than Alliance would be out of half-trained pilots to threw en masse against them.

            IMHO, but the really good solution might be cheap wooden pulsejet fighter. Of course, the Alliance would need an example of pulsejet (I.e.V-1 missile or “Okha”-B plane), but the pulsers are completely within their capabilities.

          7. By donald j johnson on

            If the Pulse Jet is the solution and the wooden airframe is part of the solution then they are in luck because somebody should know about the Pulse Jet and the fact that it was invented in before WWI should help. They have the technology, and the engine is made from Steel where is the major problem

          8. By donald j johnson on

            Another thing to remember is that aluminum is not required for a metal aircraft. As Alexi can probably confirm the mig-25 which was one of the fastest Fighters around used steel in the skin of the aircraft and not Titanium or aluminum. Sufficient engine power will lift anything! If speed is the only requirement then why wait for aluminum and why not use thin Steel for the framing skin in a Pulse Jet. 600 + miles an hour and the competition won’t even see them coming. If the Allies had not had the extreme number of piston aircraft in World War II the German Jets might have had a chance to slow us down a lot had they come out faster simply due to their speed

          9. By Alexey Shiro on

            //If the Pulse Jet is the solution and the wooden airframe is part of the solution then they are in luck because somebody should know about the Pulse Jet and the fact that it was invented in before WWI should help. //

            In theory yes, someone may knew about the existence of pulsejets. Goddard patented one in 1934, and I imagine that aviation magazines, like “Flight”, probably mentioned such “futuristic aircraft propulsion”.

            But to knew that such thing exist and be able to design one, is two different things – albeit not as different, as with high-power piston engines.

            My IMHO, the best chance for Alliance would be to obtain the pulsejet through transfer. There could be quite a lot of pulsejets on Pacific in 1945-1946. The Japanese obtained schemes from Germany and have plans to use them onboard “Kawanishi Baika” attack plane. The USAAF planned to use reverse-engineered V-1 missiles (known as “Loon”) against Japan homeland before the planned invasion.

            I could imagine quite easily that some missile get transferred and crashed somewhere on Shogunate territory. After that, it wouldn’t took a long for Alliance to reverse-engineer the pulsejet engine.

          10. By Alexey Shiro on

            // As Alexi can probably confirm the mig-25 which was one of the fastest Fighters around used steel in the skin of the aircraft and not Titanium or aluminum.//

            Exactly. She is all-steel (with some titanium alloy on wing edges), and could reach Mach 2,85 in level flight.

            P.S. Actually, the USSR have a lot of experience with steel planes. Because of high costs of aluminium, in 1920s the USSR started to experiment with steel airplanes. About a dozen of “Stal” (rus. for “steel”) series planes with steel frames were build in late 1920s-mid 1930s.

          11. By Lou Schirmer on

            While I agree that “modern” fighters are many years away, our heroes can certainly design something with what they have to be at least competitive with the League aircraft. The LOT aircraft would be early to mid 1930s designs to be in operation with an invasion fleet in 1939. Those designs, from what I can see were capable of about 300 mph & lightly armed. With the 365 hp radials, the Union could build a plywood in-line pusher armed with either four .30 or .50 cal BMGs which could easily match that performance. With a simple variable pitch mechanism (I put one up on DA) that configuration could easily do 300+ mph & being lighter than the LOT metal aircraft, may have better maneuverability.

            This would be a future design they could take their time testing, since the P-1C is a close match against the current Jap fighters.

          12. By Alexey Shiro on

            We don’t knew exactly, what planes League have. Assuming generally the same technical evolution as in our timeline, they probably have Bf.109E fighters for German component, Fiat CR.42 for Italian component, and Dewoitine D.500 & Morane-Saulnier M.S.406 for French component. Of them, Bf.109E and M.S.406 are modern, high-preformance all-metal fighters with enclosed cabins & retracting gear. D.500 are older, but still VERY capable in compairson with Alliance current fighters.

          13. By Lou Schirmer on

            Meant to say “in-line twin”, sorry.

            As far as pulse jets go, they have their issues also.
            1. Very low thrust at take off for starters. They would need either a very strong catapult launch or a RATO system for take off. The V-1s assisted launch pulled 10 g’s to get the weapon up to a good speed for engine operation.
            2. The valves tended to fatigue & fail fairly rapidly. Not good for a high ops tempo fighter.
            3. Very high temperatures in the combustion area would require excellent steel for repeated combat sorties.
            4. Noise & vibration were also an issue for the pilots & airframe.
            5. High fuel consumption would tend to limit the range.

            These limitations are why most nations experimented with them & then just used them for single use operations like the V-1, attack missiles & target drones.

          14. By Lou Schirmer on

            Granted we don’t know what the LOT has, but since the Bf-109Es began production in 1939, if the German contingent has any fighters, they would probably be the C or D models. Given their junior status, they may only have a support or transport role, although those would probably be the best fighters of the bunch.
            The same issue with the CR-42, although since it entered service in May of 1939, it’s a toss up as to whether there were enough operational to go with an invasion.

          15. By donald j johnson on

            After the book we will know at least onr modern fighter they have and it is roughly equivelant to the P40. I will not say which one other than to say a p40 got one

          16. By Justin on

            Looks like some of us haven’t gotten the book yet… should we move the spoiler ban to next next week?

            Anyway, you two are pretty close to the mark. Though let’s just say that the standard Italian fighter is FAR more modern than a biplane.

          17. By donald j johnson on

            well having read the book twice now I would think that I would know what’s happening. And they definitely have some better Fighters in the league it’s the number of Fighters that is the question and yes if we swarm them they will run out of Fighters faster than we will because I doubt they can rebuild them as fast as we can. And considering that what was said in certain incidents in the book If true they don’t really want a war yet

          18. By Justin on

            Nah, “you two” meaning Lou and Alexey, who seem to still be in the guesswork phase.

            And it might work, or it might not, but it’d be very OOC – ironic too – for the Union Air Force to adopt Grik swarm tactics against the League.

          19. By Steve Moore on

            Well, rather than bring up the L word again (logistics), lets just say that the typical mid-30’s era European fighter probably had pretty short LEGS. Not what you need to fight an over-ocean war. And no Air-Sea Rescue either.

            But regarding pulse jets… if Kurokawa gets into it, imagine air-dropped Baka bombers with expendable Ull at the controls (such as the runts of the litters, limb deformities, etc. Ten times faster than torpedoes. Beats the need for RATO units.

          20. By Steve Moore on

            My guess is that any conflict with the LOT is going to be staged by them out of Italian East Africa. Just as the Allies used southern England during the run up to D-Day, they’re going to have to use inland Egypt. They’ve got the Nile for a highway, paddle tugs and barges are all they need for transport,and it wouldn’t surprise me if they try to conscript Halik. Italian East Africa is mostly flat, away from all three major potential adversaries (the Grik Grik, Halik and the Union) and oil can be shipped by pipeline over secure territory.

          21. By Lou Schirmer on

            I’ve got the book & certain others had pre-publishing copies for whatever pre-publishing copies are used for. I was just in the middle of reading another series again while waiting for this to come out. Time to get off my duff.

            //My guess is that any conflict with the LOT is going to be staged by them out of Italian East Africa.//
            I figure Italian East Africa is Grik East Africa right now, so they would have to either expend a lot of resources conquering it OR establish some sort of alliance with the Grik before they’re able to attack from there.

          22. By Matt on

            The major problem is and will remain access to aluminum. All that they have is from wrecked modern aircraft. It’s not enough to build a bunch of new planes with because they will likely be in a similar size and weight category anyways. They don’t have any real metallurgists with them so they don’t have anyone who would know how to get aluminum from bauxite or any idea where deposits are.

            The limitations of Union metal science reaches further though. Up to this point all of their ICE engines have been naturally aspirated. If they want more performance they are going to need superchargers and turbochargers. They have a pattern for those from the P-40s, Catalina and the Betty but just like with making metal aircraft that isn’t enough. Those require special alloys and bearings. More so for the turbos but the issue still exists for superchargers. Any they would make now wouldn’t last long in operation and may even fly apart.

            Ben can certainly design something like a P-35 or P-36 but without a good supply of aluminum and superchargers it wouldn’t work. You just can’t get something like that to work with steel and they are pretty much at the peak of performance for wood and canvas.

            One thing that I haven’t seen mentioned in the books is the likely serious flight restrictions on the P-1s. If they can break 200 mph in level flight that means they can break 300 in a dive. Trying to pull out at that speed would likely rip the wings right off.

            Bauxite is actually pretty plentiful in Australia in our world but the problem is the only process for refining it that the destroyermen would possibly know of, or anyone from the 40’s really, is the hall-heroult process which requires cryolite. Cryolite is very rare. The largest deposit was in Greenland. We have better processes now but they weren’t developed until post war and involved chemists and metallurgists. Hall-Heroult also requires a lot of energy and is pretty inefficient. This alone wouldn’t stop them but it would likely slow production.

          23. By donald johnson on

            A turbo made from steel is acceptable. it just needs to be larger and slower, and possibly a 2 stage device. get the pressure up to 30 inches in the first one then up to 50+ inches in the second. A super charger does not need the heat treatment that a turbo charger does as it is engine shaft driven instead of exhaust driven.

          24. By Justin on

            Welcome aboard, Matt.

            Also worth mention is that the Hawker Hurricane (Mark I) was a wood frame with a fabric covering (later, steel) and no supercharger. So the Union hasn’t quite hit the performance ceiling yet.

          25. By Alexey Shiro on

            Probably the Union better try steel alloys instead of aluminium. The planes woud be somewhat heavier, but MUCH easier to build.

          26. By matthieu on

            You need to be careful: in this forum we use words like aluminium or steel while engineers know that the real issue is “which percentage of sulfur can we accept in steel to reach a givel level of performance”.

            People are not stupid either in this world. They just need a lot of time to re-discover what engineers know but not them.

            Just run a small test, seriously: we all have access to internet (so our level of basic knowledge in quite unlimited) but it’s hard, even for us, to find some really important techniques (they are easy to find is specialized book that nobody read)

            Just assume that you want to produce something with a limited number of components. Let’s say a gun. You need some good steel /iron. you need to be able to maintain quality. you need to be able to draw blueprints: you need paper, pens, a lot of training for those who are going to draw them (now it’s forgotten but some people had to learn the trade during years before spending their whole live copying blueprints) and so on.

          27. By donald j johnson on

            One one thing that is very definite is that the steel of the skin of an aircraft is very different from the Steel used in the barrel of a gun it is much more malleable. It has the ability of being cold rolled where’s the steel used in a gun barrel does not have the ability of being cold rolled. It is also very thin so they would need different machines for rolling and pressing it keeping it consistent would be a potential problem.
            As mentioned previously there are those who probably know the differences in the destroyermen world but as you also mentioned knowing the differences and being able to produce the differences is the problem.

          28. By Matt on

            //You need to be careful: in this forum we use words like aluminium or steel while engineers know that the real issue is “which percentage of sulfur can we accept in steel to reach a given level of performance”.

            I didn’t mean to step on anyone’s toes. They are certainly capable of figuring it out eventually but without direct experience with Aluminum it would require a pretty long and painful rediscovery of what was originally a long and painful process to figure out originally. With everyone dedicated to the war effort and “good enough now better than perfect tomorrow” I don’t think we will see it for awhile. Once they do manage to get aluminum going it will be a fairly quick process to modernize their aircraft I think.

            //Welcome aboard, Matt.
            Also worth mention is that the Hawker Hurricane (Mark I) was a wood frame with a fabric covering (later, steel) and no supercharger. So the Union hasn’t quite hit the performance ceiling yet.

            Really? I thought it had a steel tube frame? It had wood but it wasn’t load bearing to my knowledge. Not sure about the blower or lack thereof though.

            //A turbo made from steel is acceptable. it just needs to be larger and slower, and possibly a 2 stage device. get the pressure up to 30 inches in the first one then up to 50+ inches in the second. A super charger does not need the heat treatment that a turbo charger does as it is engine shaft driven instead of exhaust driven.

            Is that overall manifold pressure or boost pressure? Max manifold pressure for our beloved P-40Es is 45.5 and that’s only for a few minutes so we don’t need to be nearly that aggressive. Boost pressure for any Union blowers would probably be limited to single digit psi, still a noticeable bump in power. I was more concerned about the quality of the bearings for the superchargers than alloys. You’re right you can make blowers just out of steel fine.

          29. By donald johnson on

            //Is that overall manifold pressure or boost pressure? Max manifold pressure for our beloved P-40Es is 45.5//

            “technically, manifold pressure is the pressure above an absolute vacuum and boost pressure is positive compressed pressure above atmospheric usually the result of a turbo or supercharger.”
            So I inferred it to be boost since we are not working in a vacuum.

          30. By Matt on

            //“technically, manifold pressure is the pressure above an absolute vacuum and boost pressure is positive compressed pressure above atmospheric usually the result of a turbo or supercharger.”
            So I inferred it to be boost since we are not working in a vacuum.

            Sorry I guess I should clarify, by boost I mean pressure from the supercharger or compessor. It’s common jargon with car tuning to refer to the psi/bar whatever your compressor is pushing as boost. Sorry if it seemed like I was butchering terms there. I don’t know how much boost the Allison V12 had from it’s supercharger but from flight Sims I know that at Max war power it’s manifold was about 45.5. of course HG to psi is apples to potato’s. My point was that was a ballpark to shoot for and given the bearings and metal the union has to work with their superchargers are probably going to be limited to single digit psi for relaibility. Doing more would require more agressive gearing and the bearings may not take the rpms and heat.

            I did some back of the napkin math and if they can reliably make a supercharger to push 6psi of boost then we are looking at roughly having the same performance at ~15k feet as the naturally aspirated engine would at sea level. Not to mention better sea level performance. That’s not bad at all and beyond that we would probably need either pressurized cabins or masks since the cats seem to be effected by high altitudes more so than humans.

            All that equipment probably adds too much weight to the fleshooters but it could possibly work in the PB-5Ds. The added performance and altitude might allow them to fly above the Grick rocket AA entirely.

        3. By donald johnson on

          In the east the only aircraft they have is the Grik Bird and the Nancy is useful against them. they should also be useful as patrol craft in the east with the convoys there.

          Reply
          1. By Steve Moore on

            If they build a new fighter, the P-1s will probably transition to the East, just as the Brits used Tomahawks in North Africa while saving Spits for home defense.

            What I’d be more concerned about is the fact that the Caribbean is a lot closer than Madagascar. The NUS has had contact with them already in some fashion it seems, so to reverse that, the LOT knows that the New World is probably a pushover. Plenty of islands for air bases, and once all the dangerous animals are erased, no more can move in. That way, they can control the Carribean and Gulf with just a few planes and supply vessels. Dawn takeoffs, patrol a couple of hundred miles and land at another island to fuel, patrol another couple of hours and home for dinner.

            That way, you control all the resources of the New World, force the Union to reinforce the East by taking forces away in the West, and weaken the front opposing the Grik.

  4. Taylor AndersonBy Taylor Anderson (Post author) on

    “DEVIL’S DUE” is officially on the loose!

    I’m very excited and hope you all enjoy reading it as much as I loved writing it! I’ll be getting a few copies to give away–signed, of course. Hey! How about a “Favorite Scene in the Series” contest? (Pre Devil’s Due, to avoid spoilers). Describe your choice here or on my facebook page by, say, July 4th, and three winners will be determined by how many comments agree with you!

    Reply
        1. By donald j johnson on

          AGGGG, I finished the second reading now and I got another year to go for another book. Speed up the next book

          Reply
    1. By Steve Moore on

      Looked nice… in the 3 seconds I had before Photobucket snatched it away from me and left me just a ad for Flo the Progressive Lady. :-( Declined to sign up, I’m trying to reduce the number of things I’m signed up for. But still a nice design, Justin. Probably a little too heavy to make a MGB out of a PT. I’ll defer the questions on forging/drawing the barrels to Professor Anderson.

      Reply
      1. By Justin on

        Might be time to switch back to DeviantArt…

        Anyway, it’s an AA gun, not a main gun – definitely too heavy for the PTs.
        As Alexey, Lou, matthieu et all intended, the idea is to add a modern motor + hydraulics to a proven Gatling-type weapon (the 37mm Hotchkiss) and end up with sorely needed mid/long-range point defence for larger warships. I put her on a Type 96 mount because why not?

        Reply
        1. By Steve Moore on

          Just the right size for Lou’s TB and DE designs; if a wooden-hulled subchaser is ever built, not a bad main weapon. The PT’s used the 40mm to good advantage against Japanese barges; imagine them ripping up a few Doms or Griks… or on an armored chassis for AA & assault use on land. Between I’joorka and Silva, God knows what they’d come up with. Keeping up with ammo supply could be a problem.

          Reply
      2. By Lou Schirmer on

        I got to it after fighting my way through savage hordes of advertisements. Looks good. Magazine fed not drop feed like the Bofors, correct? Probably 7-8 rounds that way, or maybe could go with a double stack with the right follower & get 14-16 rounds.
        Might even do a slow machine driven hopper feed (sort of a loose ammo drop feed like the 40mm Bofors) with a “pause” switch when the gun stops firing or the hopper is full. It would start feeding again when the gun started firing &/or the rounds in the hopper fell below the “pause” switch.

        Reply
  5. By Lou Schirmer on

    With many Union aircraft being shot up, crashing or otherwise too damaged to fly, there might be some W/G engines lying around in decent shape in Grik City.
    I can see some enterprising soul either remembering trucks or having mentioned them to a cat, & have one of them start thinking.
    You could mount a W/G engine on a wagon, build a chain & sprocket drive to the rear wheels, add a steering wheel, a gas can no one wants & presto! A Jeep!
    After some excitement, they may have to add suspension of some sort & radically upgrade the breaks, but I could see it catching on as a quick way to get around the Grik City area, harbor & air field.

    Reply
    1. By Justin on

      150 horsepower seems a bit overkill for a Willys.

      Maybe a halftrack? It’s also less likely to get stuck in bad terrain.

      Reply
      1. By Steve Moore on

        A half-track would make more sense in terms of providing more development of tracked vehicles, also to develop prime movers for artillery or cargo. Or, cut the W/G in two and make a smaller engine for a ‘mule’ style vehicle.

        Regardless, the bulk of the army still moves on its feet; not too many places to deploy mech infantry or armored cav, unless you have the space for flanking maneuvers a la Rommel or Schwartzkopf.

        Still think next thing should be railroads, since there exists the need to move quickly along the eastern and western Republic coasts, and a vehicular road network will take a lot of time. If you keep your railroad in your rear, or at least in territory you control, shipments should be pretty dependable.

        Reply
        1. By Justin on

          //Or, cut the W/G in two and make a smaller engine for a ‘mule’ style vehicle.//

          Depends on how you cut it – cutting a Marine in half doesn’t exactly make a smaller Marine.

          (“Try cutting off the head, he doesn’t need it!”

          “Shut your ass up, Navy!”)

          //Regardless, the bulk of the army still moves on its feet; not too many places to deploy mech infantry or armored cav, unless you have the space for flanking maneuvers a la Rommel or Schwarzkopf.//

          It doesn’t necessarily have to be for breakthroughs – the Union/Republic can use them just to move artillery/equipment/personnel from the rear to the front (and vice versa for casualties).

          The problem so far is the Air Force taking all the engines and the Tank Corps getting whatever’s left – if there’s functioning salvage lying around the combat zone, that equation changes.

          Reply
          1. By Willliam Curry on

            MARINE stands for “muscles are required, intelligence not essential” or “My ass rides in Navy Equipment”
            Steam power works fine for prime movers for things like artillery and towing trailers full of supplies and fuel. There were used in the Great war. Think steam powered farm tractor as was used in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. They also serve as portable power station as they could drive generators, saw mills, and other machinery with PTO’s or belts.

          2. By donald johnson on

            //cutting a Marine in half doesn’t exactly make a smaller Marine.//
            no it makes 2 air farce dudes :-)

        2. By Steve White on

          We’ve talked about rail — narrow-gauge rail in Borno makes a lot of sense to move ore and coal to Baalkpan and the other industrial sites. Rail at dockside makes sense to help move goods to and from the ships, and to move cranes into position, etc.

          As to vehicles: Dwight Eisenhower always said that one of the keys to winning the war in Europe was the Dodge 2 1/2 ton, 6 wheel, 6 wheel-drive truck. I wouldn’t expect that here, but a 150 hp engine could pull quite a hauler vehicle for supplies, artillery, etc.

          Reply
          1. By Justin on

            //We’ve talked about rail — narrow-gauge rail in Borno makes a lot of sense to move ore and coal to Baalkpan and the other industrial sites. Rail at dockside makes sense to help move goods to and from the ships, and to move cranes into position, etc.//

            Problem there is that Baalkpan (and other Alliance territories) already has water-based trade – therefore, little to no land clearance.
            Chopping undergrowth and building rail to, let’s say, the oil fields, doesn’t seem to be effective short-term when they can just send it downriver by boat; maybe consider it once the Grik are gone.

            Perhaps an inter-urban? It can move passengers and freight around the city.

            //I wouldn’t expect that here, but a 150 hp engine could pull quite a hauler vehicle for supplies, artillery, etc.//

            Field conditions have gotten a bit messy before (mud, undergrowth, etc), so again, maybe tracked or halftracked vehicles instead of wheeled ones. The SdKfz 10 or M2 Carrier comes to mind.

            Failing that, they could try a motorcycle halftrack like the SdKfz 2 – you don’t even need a W/G for that one!

          2. By donald johnson on

            I am surprised we haven’t heard from a certain party on these marine jokes. At least Silva isn’t a marine, He is more like the UDT in full bloom.

          3. By Steve Moore on

            200,000+ 6×6’s sure gave the Red Army some mobility. Read an article a few years (maybe 10) back about how some were still running in Russia.

            Makes those ’57 Chevys in Cuba look new.

    2. By Lou Schirmer on

      Guys, I’m not talking about equipping a land campaign, just some enterprising cat using surplus stuff he “acquired” to build something he heard the humans talking about. It’s not an actual Jeep, I just called it that as something simple & easy to build & work on. Just a cargo wagon with an engine & some mods to run around Grik City, maybe carry big wigs around (the official reason if asked). After making it more comfortable & safe, of course.
      I’ll bet Silva would take the ball & run when he caught wind of it. Pretty soon there’d be drag races at the air field, maybe road courses at the edge of town & on the beaches like they used to do at Daytona. Gambling on the races (with Silva getting a piece of the action natch), shops setting up to build more & modify them for more speed, safety, comfort etc..
      Might be a way for them to get more power out of the W/G engine, the way racing did in this world. Reddy or someone would have to step in eventually to keep too many engines from being “damaged” & “unfit for flight”, but it would be a good morale builder & entertainment for the troops as well as a way for some to blow off steam & decompress from combat.
      I never meant it to be a new production military transport, just something thrown together for fun.

      Reply
      1. By Lou Schirmer on

        Or if there’s a Cajun cat around, they may come up with the airboat to get around the rivers, swamps & bayous. The boat would need to be decent sized to take the W/G engine, so it could carry a bit of cargo where normal boats couldn’t. You could even put a .30 cal in it with some of Chack’s Raider’s for riverine operations, say spoiling ops & recon up the Zambezi. Muffle the engine & take3-4 boats to have an effective strike force, or 1-2 for recon missions.

        Reply
        1. By Lou Schirmer on

          For that matter, you might be able to mount a 3″ or 4″ mortar in one. Sneak in on raids with oars or poles & when ready, mortar the enemy camp all to hell. If you’re really feeling froggy, tow some barges stuffed with rockets behind the airboats & REALLY make a statement when you open fire.

          Reply
          1. By donald johnson on

            nothing like a few Stalin’s organs to really wake up the opposition

          2. By Steve Moore on

            Quick way to get ashore on a foreign shore… like Zanzibar.

          3. By Lou Schirmer on

            Not a bad idea, airboat landing craft.

          4. By donald johnson on

            and then there is the ultimate airboat, the air cushion craft and 150 horses would inflate and power a real big one carrying lotsa troops and gear. Do ya think some cat might figure out how to build one. and think about what a air cushion craft could do if it was carrying torpedoes. Too bad the idea came to late in the war to do any good.

          5. By Steve Moore on

            Towing heavy loaded barges with airboats sort of defeats the purpose of the airboats, plus you’d have to abandon them when removing your treats, and it gives away your position on an stealthy incursion. Seems to me you’d want aerial attacks as a diversion while your commandos go in. Especially if you want to operate quietly, like if you wanted to catch someone unawares.

          6. By Lou Schirmer on

            True, they’d best stick with just airboats with machine guns & mortars. We’ll leave the rocket barges for landing support.

        2. By Steve White on

          A 150 hp engine would power a Higgins boat.

          Reply
          1. By Lou Schirmer on

            Probably best for opposed landings since they provide protection for the troops going into the beachhead. They could also use the 225 hp 6 cylinders that the MTBs use.

        3. By Steve Moore on

          Since the Grik Grik don’t have machine guns or airplanes, that’s a good possibility. However, wouldn’t the single-bank radial, or maybe an opposed two-cylinder version (100 hp) be a lighter choice for an airboat? The more horsepower per pound, the better, I would think, plus an air-cooled motor eliminates a lot of complexity. Riverine operations means a lot of hidden snags that an airboat would have a lot better chance of passing over.

          2 30’s in the front, port & starboard, and a sliding disembarking ramp. Maybe a few sacks of grenades, and to get really crazy, an air compressor to provide a little more oomph for a flamethrower cart for harbor raids. Although an incendiary air raid would probably work just as well.

          Well, a few idea for Lou’s next design, the ‘Ragin’ Cajun’ airboat…

          Reply
  6. By Julian Ceres on

    How would a St. Louis Protected cruiser fair against the ships from the destroyer men universe and if so then what would it go against to make said encounter a fair one?

    Reply
  7. By Joe Thorsky on

    Lou
    Speaking of “forin” pilots and fly-by-night airlines (Cargo)
    Experience is a harsh mistress especially when put to pen and
    paper. So, here I go.

    Height Restrictions
     
    Scandinavian pilots sure are a crazy lot,
    They play, they drink, they boast, they sing,
    They’re really into that “love” flying thing.
     
    As the human cargo, you know you’ve taken quite the chance,
    To get that one flighty pilot who just by fate and happenstance,
    Fits nicely into the captain’s chair without any hesitation, care or doubt,
    As long as he can just take that dashboard instrument (IFR) route.
     
    He needs a book that’s extremely heavy, thick and high,
    If he ever wants to view, and reach that wide open air and sky,
    From ground to heaven there’s no catapult, towline or hook,
    As long as he can sit on that oversized telephone book.
     
    So, in a frenzied rush to put all postponed affairs to right,
    You gladly max out on the individual insurance of flight,
    You’ll need no food, no sleep, no pills nor drugs
    When on journey’s end you gladly drink from his proffered flask of glug.
      
    Inquiry
     
    When NTSB investigators arrive on scene to clean up an air crash disaster mess,
    Runes, black box secrets, slide rules, Ouija boards and computer simulations all are used to make the governments’ official educated guess,
    The question of How is carefully depicted, identified, catalogued and put on for public display,
    Leaving only the Why and Because explanation and answer to be postponed, put off, deferred and reconsidered for another day.
     
     

    Reply
    1. By Lou Schirmer on

      I usually need a Ouija board to understand your posts Joe, but I got this one loud-n-clear Kemoswabee!

      Reply
      1. By Leslie Wilson on

        You forgot the entrails of the sacred chicken. When I was at HQMC, those were the most important part of our T/E.

        Reply
  8. By Julian Ceres on

    The way that the HE 100 cools its engine is by using the airflow of the wings and allowing the air to help cool its engine along with some other liquid cooling systems to go along as well. Also, the HE 100 is made mostly of wood and aluminum which allows it to take full advantage of its maybach 1000 horsepower engine and high cooling efficency.

    P.S. Aftee landing, unless you want to get third degree burns while exiting the plane, then NEVER TOUCH THE WINGS AFTER FLYING THE PLANE!!!

    Reply
    1. By Lou Schirmer on

      Maybach engines powered tanks for the Reich, Daimler was the engine they wanted for it at over 1,500hp (some versions over 2,000hp), but the Me 109s & 110s were using all they could produce.

      The evaporative cooling system on it was way too complex for a combat aircraft. 22 pumps, the liquid was cooled in the body & inboard wings with a radiator also & the vapor was run through the outboard wings. If they’d gone with a normal cooling system & had engines available, it would have been a vicious fighter to deal with. As you say, Hot Wings anyone?

      Reply
    2. By Steve Moore on

      Well, they could have always transferred it to the Canteen Corps, flying in wherever brats and potato pancakes needed to be cooked…. sling the beer barrels under the wings to keep them cool.

      Reply
  9. By Julian Ceres on

    *Rolls out a He 100* “That’s cute, Race my He 100 and then we’ll decide who’s really the fastest here.” Btw the Henkiel 100 can do 700 kph in a straight line at 4,000ft.

    Reply
    1. By Lou Schirmer on

      Very nice plane & fast, but I think the cooling system & lack of enough good engines is what killed it. Probably a good thing for our guys over there.

      Reply
    1. By Justin on

      Well, she’s not going to win any fashion awards, but with stats like those, she doesn’t need to.

      Quick, somebody think of a Silva-ism! “Pipe-ning?” “Light wing?”

      Reply
        1. By Joe Thorsky on

          Lou-Justin

          Howse about Splitfire, Katerwauler I, Katerwhaler II as
          plane designations?

          Reply
          1. By Lou Schirmer on

            I like Splitfire, so many ways to take it the wrong way.

      1. By Lou Schirmer on

        Got to thinking about your comment on the stats & believe I was a bit optimistic on the B model (read that as greedy). Drag goes up on an increasing curve the faster you go, kind of like ships needing to double the horse power for a one quarter increase in speed. So I cut the top end a bit. For the next speed level increase they’re going to need retractable landing gear… & more horsepower.

        Reply
        1. By donald johnson on

          drag goes up by the square law. to double the speed you need 4 times the horsepower

          Reply
          1. By donald johnson on

            this means that with 2 engines inline and no extra drag the plane should be capable of being 1.41 times as fast as a one engine version. the twin booms will cause some engine drag so i would think it would be 1.3 times as fast as a single engine with same area cross basic section.

          2. By Lou Schirmer on

            Wow! 331 mph sounds good to me, but there are other factors coming into play also. It’s made of plywood which jacks the weight up. We have to slightly more than double the engine & prop weight (variable pitch mechanism adds a bit). The tail booms, as you noted, add frontal area drag along with the twin vertical stabilizers & the ventral fin also. More is added by the larger horizontal stabilizer. Then the gun & ammo weight add up (double on the A model, more on the B, a lot more if we add the 25mm cannon & ammo). Add some more weight for the pilot breathing system & enclosed cockpit. We get some drag reduction with the enclosed cockpit & faired main gear. Even reducing your multiplier to 1.2 gives us 306 mph, in line with my greedy estimate for the B model(proud of myself, back patting in progress). That’s going by the P-1Cs speed rating on 325 hp. Both models may perform better than the design study estimates. I may have to change the specs in the study.

          3. By Steve Moore on

            Guess we’ll be seeing Lou at Oshkosh in a few years!

          4. By Lou Schirmer on

            OK I’ll need some bamboo, flashie scale glue, four .50 cal machine guns & someone who knows how to build a plane from butt scratch.

          5. By donald johnson on

            I do not think the bamboo I have in my yard is good enough. Too soft and flexible also the panda’s would complain about losing their dinner.

      2. By Lou Schirmer on

        Maybe:
        Two-Flashie?
        Twisted-Kitty?
        Two-Fer-One?
        Boom-Town?
        Shave-Tail?
        Actually these would be good names for pilots to call their planes.

        Reply
      1. By Steve Moore on

        nice. Looks like you increased the length of the vertical stabilizer to help with one-engine emergencies?

        The Lighting looks terrific, although Silva would probably call it something like the one-two punch or double trouble.

        Reply
        1. By Lou Schirmer on

          Thanks. If you mean the vertical stabilizer on the P6B-B, no, it’s not longer. The wing being farther back may make it look that way. Now you mention it though, that might be one of the things they have to tweak if it ever flies.

          We’ve got some Silva-isms already with Justin chiming in with:
          //Quick, somebody think of a Silva-ism! “Pipe-ning?” “Light wing?”//

          I added my two bits with Whirly-Boom & Fork-Screw.

          Reply
          1. By Steve Moore on

            Yeah, Silva better watch the ‘double’ entendre… Since Dornier did the tandem thing with a lot of their flying boats, it’s not an unreasonable idea to pop into Mallory’s mind. Especially if Walbert comes over to the good-guy side, he obviously has a multi-engine rating since he’s flying Auntie Ju…

          2. By Steve Moore on

            Looking at the design again, I thought of something… since taxiing on a carrier deck is going to be limited, don’t think it would be a problem there, but on a land base, would Cats be able to see over the engine cowl for extended taxiways? Some Alitalia pilot ran into a service truck today, and they’ve got better views… Maybe adjustable seats?

          3. By Lou Schirmer on

            All tail draggers have a limited forward view. To keep safe they do what’s called S-turns while taxiing, this helps them see what’s in front of them. You can see the war birds doing this at air shows. Alternately, sometimes they had a ground crewman/cat standing on the wing next to the pilot telling them where to go & letting them know if they’re about to hit something. Most pilots are also taught to do S-turns or clearing turns during steep climbs where forward visibility is limited by the high deck angle.

          4. By Lou Schirmer on

            Alitalia pilots were notorious in my day as hot dog pilots. Most were ex-military fighter jocks. They climb like bats out of a hot spot & where most descents are supposed to be gentle for passenger comfort, these guys would be almost over the airport before tipping one wing & dropping like a rock. Successful landings were accompanied by cheers & clapping from the passengers grateful to be alive. I guess the pilots took that as encouragement.
            Many foreign air lines & ground crews aren’t as attentive as they’re supposed to be, especially third world airlines & airports. My parents worked in Libya in the 1970s & the “terminal” still had bullet holes in it. In Indonesia in the late 60s there was an incident when the pilot taxied out for take off & pulled the gear up instead of lowering the flaps (flight cancelled due to technical difficulties). Another one was a DC-3 had the power cart too close to the engines & when they started the prop ripped up the cart before disintegrating noisily (flight cancelled due to technical difficulties). Good times. :)

          5. By donald johnson on

            A potential fix on the tail drager taxiing problem could be an adjustable wheel height on tail wheel. down on landing and takeoff but up on taxiing. this could be a ground crew adjustment.

      2. By donald johnson on

        is there a good reason it is a pusher instead of a puller. in a water landing or takeoff water splashing the props can cause more damage in a pusher a.s it having more time ti splash up to the hight or the props

        Reply
        1. By Lou Schirmer on

          It’s still a pusher due to the hand propping requirement on the W/G engine. If they’re away from the launching ship, the observer is the starting system.

          Reply
          1. By donald johnson on

            and how is the observer supposed to start is when floating? a small boat or raft will not do. It really needs an inertial starter or similar that can be cranked from inside the cockpit.

          2. By Lou Schirmer on

            True, they need an inertial starter for it & fairly easy to design & since it’s a fairly small engine also fairly light.
            The starter has to reach to each side & pull the prop down & towards them. They’re counter rotating, turning inboard on each side. It’s the same engine essentially, they need to change the cam, the timing & the prop to make it counter rotate.

      3. By Steve White on

        The cat in the rear seat is going to be deaf from the noise of two engines.

        Reply
        1. By Lou Schirmer on

          He/she can duck behind the Plexiglas after starting & the actual engines are a bit farther away from the observer than on the Nancy.

          Reply
          1. By Steve Moore on

            They still have a supply of plexiglass? Left on board the Santa Catalina? I wouldn’t want to be that observer either…

          2. By Lou Schirmer on

            They’ve got glass at least since there’s windshields on all the aircraft. Plexi was in commercial use in the late 1930s for aircraft use among other things. Courtney or someone may know how to make it. Bulletproof glass had been around for 20 years or so, so someone may also know how to make that, although it was usually only used for the front windshield of fighters since it was a bit heavy.

    2. By donald johnson on

      Just noticed how close the rear prop is to the ground. I hope that there is not a lot of shock depression on landing or you are going to lose a lot of props and cranks on rear engine unless you stop and feather in a position where prop is not vertical while landing. Stopping an engine while landing is nor a good thing under normal operation in my estimation.

      Reply
      1. By Lou Schirmer on

        That’s one of the two reasons I put the ventral fin in front of the rear engine. If a hard landing is made & the main gear struts depress too far, the fin & replaceable skid plate will hopefully keep the prop from hitting. It’s also so I could mount the arresting hook low enough to engage the arresting cables.

        Reply
    3. By Steve White on

      I’m certainly no aircraft designer but some questions —

      — first, how will this aircraft handle? I worry that an in-line push/pull airframe won’t turn well. In an aircraft projected to be an air defense fighter, nimble is a high priority.

      — second, I worry that it’s over-gunned for the airframe. The Alliance still isn’t turning out a lot of .30 cal machine guns. Putting two on the airframe rather than four, and leaving space to upgrade to a .50 cal, makes sense as you can spread the number of guns to more airframes. The weight will be less as well, and that (to me) seems important — you’ve got a lot of weight out towards the tips of the wings and that may impair maneuverability.

      — third, I think the range is optimistic. Two gas guzzling engines in that frame, and not a lot of room for fuel if one respects CG.

      I like the idea, and clearly the Alliance needs a new airframe that is within the means of production.

      Reply
      1. By Lou Schirmer on

        First – I agree, handling in a fighter is a priority. It should turn quite well. One advantage with using radials is they are shorter & allow for a more compact airframe. I also increased the wing area considerably to keep the wing loading down which also contributes to good turning radius.

        Second – This is a design study & not in production yet, so by the time it is (maybe), the .30 cal MGs should be available in numbers. As far as outboard weight goes, the P-38 of our world had two big engines in about the same spot & turned very nicely. Roll rate might be affected, but I increased the size of the ailerons also. Aircraft maneuverability is more of an aerodynamic balancing act than a strictly weight issue. If it’s rigged & balanced correctly, it will maneuver well. Look at the P-47, basically a flying tank & yet it had good handling & did quite well in combat.

        Third – Yes the range is a bit high, but there is room in the fuselage for couple of large fuel tanks since there are no superchargers (yet). Also they can shut down one of the engines in flight to extend the range & with a higher cruise speed to start with, they should be able to get that range out of them. Plus, at high altitude you burn less fuel (less air for the engines, leaner mixtures, less air resistance etc.).

        Reply
        1. By Steve Moore on

          Speaking of wing area, Lou and Donald, just curious, if maneuverability were not a problem (say a long-range recon version landplane to be based in St Francis or San Diego), how much wider a wing would the spars support? They’re going to have to have something to recon the unknown spaces further east, sort of their low-altitude version of a U-2. Not much water to land on, so no sense using a seaplane. Use the fuselage and gear from an existing design but fit longer wings for more lift/less loading. Or would air turbulence be a problem? SteveM is also not an engineer…

          Reply
          1. By Lou Schirmer on

            That I’m not sure of structurally. It depends on a lot of things, like what the spar strength is, number of spars, whether you’re just lengthening the wing or changing the whole thing. If you’re just lengthening an existing wing, I wouldn’t go for more than about a 15-20% increase in wing span without extensive testing or strengthening. A better way IMO would be to design a new wing for the application. Long range aircraft usually have long narrow wings & they’re built to flex a bit as well.
            As far as wing loading goes, that’s a function of wing area (area divided by the planes weight). You can have a long narrow wing with the same wing loading as one with a short, wide chord wing. Low wing loading is good for range, turns & rate of climb, but is more sensitive to turbulence (you bounce around a lot). High wing loading (smaller wings) is good for speed & is less sensitive to turbulence.
            Power loading is horsepower divided by the weight of the plane. The lower the power load (higher HP per weight) the better the performance in takeoff, climb, top speed & turns, but high power often reduces range.

            Actually, the P-2 design would be an ideal candidate for a long range recon platform. You could lengthen the fuselage to make room for an observer & more fuel & replace the outer wings with longer, narrow chord wings with the guns replaced with more fuel tanks. It would have a reasonable turn of speed & with one engine shut down for cruise, lots of range. As a bonus, with the longer wing & no guns, takeoff & landing speeds would be cut substantially.

          2. By donald johnson on

            Longer narrower wings for a recon craft with internal wing tanks to keep it out of the cockpit leaving pilot and observer with more room and also helping improve the balance of the craft. If wings for a glider with a 20 to one glide ratio can be developed then the fuel requirements will be greatly lowered.
            An enclosed cockpit or oxygen masks will improve altitude performance. I feel that masks could get them up to 25k feet without to much problem. this will allow much higher operation so greater visual range is obtained if no clouds are slowing things down.

          3. By Steve Moore on

            Remember, recon is still being done with the Mark 1C(at) eyeball, so at 25k, things are going to be pretty tiny. Better start amping up the cameras so you can do some fast recon with P40’s over Grikland (and Zanzibar). I like the idea of glider wings; wonder if there’s anything to use for glider tugs? Create a glider corps in St Francis, if there are no grikbirds.

    4. By Steve Moore on

      Lou, your comment on a possible ‘RP-2’airframe made me think, this could be like the Mosquito or Beaufighter, a multi-purpose roleplayer. If they ever develop aerial mines (for dropping in the Zambezi) or 5″ HVAR, this could be just the plane to match with the speed needed for those missions.

      Use the lengthened fuselage for a scout bomber as well as a recon bird?

      Must have missed the TB#2, nice view of the possibilities of the aft deck.

      Reply
      1. By Justin on

        Mallory et all can only stretch the PB airframe so far – it’s a scout first, bomber second. Best to drag the Beaufort out of the jungle and use that to create a multirole instead.

        Reply
        1. By Steve Moore on

          Think they may have to build a plane around the engines they have. Give the RRP one of the Beaufort engines to reverse engineer, take the other back to Baalkpaan.

          Reply

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