Destroyermen: Into the Storm
The reviews of “Destroyermen: Into the Storm” have been very positive and they’re still coming in. If you’d like to look at a few, I’ve linked to some on the front page of my website. I continue to appreciate those reviews, as well as everyone who has bought the book. To say that I’m humbled by the gracious and appreciative reception is a vast understatement. I’ve been getting “fan mail” through my “contact” feature almost every day and not only are the compliments extremely gratifying, but many of you raise points or questions that I think would be great discussion starters on this open forum. It seems almost a shame that more people don’t have the opportunity to read the excellent points and suggestions many of you have raised. I’m sure that many of the folks who check this blog would benefit from what you have to say.
For those who choose to continue to send your comments straight to me instead of posting them publicly, that’s fine, and I still appreciate those messages just as much, but I just wish more people could read them! Some have been really great. Regardless of whether you post or e-mail your questions/comments/suggestions, however, I’ll still do my very best to address them as soon as I can! Just remember, as always, if you want me to respond via the contact feature, remember to make sure your e-mail address is correct.
Thanks in advance,
Taylor
Comments
Into The Storm
Incredable book, couldnt put it down, can’t wait till the “Crusade” comes out!
I think Peter Jackson or George Lucas would be fools not to grab this for the big screen!
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it!
YAY! It was good. I liked it, a lot like John Birmingham’s works, but more furry friendly. Will there be more yiffing in Volume 2?
Glad you liked it. Had to look up “yiffing” though. Interesting term. Is there more? Is there ANY? Sorry, I’m afraid you’ll have to wait to find out.
I love the book about 3/4 the way through. I will say I read the first of Birminghams books and it was kind of depressing. I stopped after the first one. Your style reminds me of one of my favorite authors Alton Gansky. You novel is great, to the point, and the heros are heros, people you would like to meet to hang out with. Not those antiheros that show up in alot of sci fi.
Keep up the good work.
Thanks Brad, glad you liked it. I have to ask though, did you mean you liked 3/4 of it, or you were 3/4 through? I’m also glad you enjoyed the characters. In this day and age, it’s hard not to get a little cynical sometimes. There’s a lot of senseless meanness out there. But you have to believe the vast majority of people are fundamentally decent, even if they don’t always know it themselves. I’ve seen people “rise to the occasion” too often not to believe it myself. All the characters in the Destroyermen series are flawed in some way or other, and as the series progresses, you might sometimes be surprised who “rises” and who doesn’t. But I agree with you. I think the “anti-hero” has been a little overdone in recent years. It’s effective and it can be entertaining, but what’s wrong with rooting for honorable characters once in a while? Characters who, despite their faults, are worthy of respect simply because they’re trying to do the “right” thing? Some might call that “formulaic,” but I propose that the anti-hero has become the “formula” of recent Sci-Fi.
Birmingham lets up in the following books in the series; they’re less depressing, and funny in parts.
Taylor, your my HERO!
Great work Taylor. You have been able to successfully fill yet another niche.I look forward to seeing more from you. All the best.
Taylor….I have no idea if I am doing this right, but I am replying to the check up you requested.
Best regards,
Jim
You know how much I appreciate your efforts, Taylor….now that I am retired, hopefully I can look forward to many more hours of entertainment from your pen….does anyone actually use pens anymore??
My best,
Jim
Just wanted to say that I am impressed with this adventure you have taken us on and found that I could not put down the first book at all…I was reading while I ate, did laundry and must say kept the lights on in the bedroom all night. That got a few grumbles from you know who! But guess what! I found him reading your book at 3am…so, we have enjoyed it throughly!!! I will reserve comment on #2 after I finish it!
As far as movies go, We have all seen how poorly many books
are translated as films! It would be a downright shame to allow this to be done with anything as excellent as “Destroyermen”.
I’am thinking James Cameron may be the man to pull it off.
Or possibly Ron Howard!
Any thought’s?
Everything that I know about WWII era Americans. Make our “heroes” not only plausibile, But ACCURATE !!
They truly are a generation of “heroes”.
I can’t praise Taylor Anderson enough for his characters, Especially “Silva”. I had a 1st class P.O. for a supervisor while serving myself, Called “Smitty” (Claimed that he had the all time record for making, And losing C.P.O.), I’d swear that
Taylor based “Silva” on this man if I didn’t know better!
Ray,
I swear, if I had a buck for every time somebody said “this ought to be a movie” . . .
That would sure be cool, but having had a little experience with movies, I find myself a little skeptical. For all those who read Dean Koontz’s original “Watchers,” then watched the several “attempts” to base movies on it, you know how incredibly horrible that can turn . . .
Any number of directors could “do” it, but I’m sure many would try to use some other kind of ship, or change the story into a twisted commentary on how “unenlightened” people used to be, etc. I think I’d have to insist they use a 4-stacker, even if they have to make a whole real one. As for what “vision” a director would try to portray . . . who knows.
Taylor
Sadly, Hollywood usually ruins books (in my opinion),
However, Cameron has been known to build ships before, And it worked out pretty well for him (Titanic).
Koontz, King, Are hardly recognizable as films, An exception is King’s “The Dead Zone”. Actually near word for word.
Which is the ONLY way Destoyermen should ever be allowed to
be filmed.(If it ain’t broke, Don’t fix it!)
True, Cameron made a fine Titanic, and a four-stacker would be much simpler—but I want to see a REAL one slashing through the dark blue sea, making smoke, at 30 knots! Without a green screen! Unrealistic, I know, but . . .
Yeah, How cool would that be!
Now days they would never approve the budget for a “real”
tin-can. But if you have ever seen “the Legend of 1900″. The
turn of the century passenger liner was very real looking CGI.
The movie could be made to *look* great, I think the hard part
would be getting the script to stay true to the novel !
I bet, As the author, It must be great fun for you to mull over
the casting!
Oh Yeah! I meant to mention that the narrator doing the audio books is great! I listen to them in my truck (longhaul) And was very pleased that he was also used for “Crusade’ Sorry I don’t have his name in front of me. To thank him personally,
I hope to hear him yet again on “Maelstrom”.
William Dufris is the narrator’s name. I agree, I think he did a good job. I was a little thrown by some of his voices, because that wasn’t how I’d “heard” them in my head when I was writing them, but once I got used to it, it sounded fine. I’ve been listening to “Crusade,” (in my truck) and I think he actually did better in it–maybe he was getting more comfortable with the style. I confess I cringe a little every time he says “Bar” instead of “Bee-Ay-Arr,” but otherwise, I think he did fine. I hope he does “Maelstrom” too.
Taylor
I do. In the 1920s, Japan modified its two-ship Yamato class battleships. The
United States, in desperation, decides against sending the Connecticuts to the
breakers. So they’re pressed into service before they can be upgraded. I’m working on the “world.” What about the USS Montana, BB-57? In our world, she
was scrapped on July 21, 1943. Maybe the USS Alaska. CB-1?
Blair
i picked up a copy of”into the storm”paperback.after reading i ordered all 3 in hardback which is what i do with books ill read and reread many times.what a fascinating story!
Thanks, and I’m glad you like the series!
Taylor
I just bought a copy of Into The Storm. I haven’t read it yet. According to the book The Lonely Ships: The Life and Death of the
Asiatic Fleet, by Edwin P. Hoyt, USS Parrott, USS John Pope, and
USS Edsall, were obsolete “four-stackers.” USS Langley, our first
aircraft carrier, had been converted to a seaplane tender, and
it was nothing more than a glorified cargo ship because it was ferrying P-40s to Australia at the time it was sunk. It also said that Douglas MacArthur, the commander of U.S. and Filipino forces, and Thomas Hart, the last commander of the Asiatic Fleet,
hated each other.
Hoyt’s book its great, and all that stuff is mentioned in the story–except there was no USS John Pope. The USS Pope is mentioned.
USS Walker, according to the article I read about her in Wikipedia, was used as a target hulk in 1941.
Again, as is often the case, Wikipedia mixes fact with fiction–kind of like my story. If you go ahead and read the book, you will discover, despite intense effort to make it as historically accurate as possible, it is not an historical work. Much of it is–deliberately–fantasy. Real history often emerges in the narrative, the dialogue, and the Author’s Notes, but the “Destroyermen” Series is an adventure tale where much of the action takes place on an “alternate” earth. If you are looking for another good–strictly historical–treatment of the travails of the Asiatic Fleet, besides Hoyt, I would recommend Winslow’s “The Fleet The Gods Forgot.”
Taylor
True. Some articles have to be taken with a grain of salt but that’s where I found
the article about the Connecticut class. The Virginia class preceded it and it was
followed by both the Mississippi and South Carolina classes. One of the battleships I included was USS Florida. The others are California and West Virginia. The Clemson class was the last class of flush-decked destroyers until
the Fletcher class. The Clemson class destroyers were also modified Wickes class destroyers.
On September 2, 1940, the United States and Britain signed the Destroyers for Bases Agreement. Under the Destroyers for Bases Agreement, fifty destroyers were transferred to the Royal Navy from the U.S. Navy. The Walker wasn’t one of the fifty.
Blair,
I am aware of that. if you go ahead and read to the end of book #1, “Into the Storm,” you will find some “author’s notes.” There I breifly explain what really happened to Walker and Mahan–and why I chose them for the story.
Taylor
Ill be reading it soon. When I first came to your website, I looked up the USS Walker in Wikipedia. The article on her said she was used as a target hulk designated DCH-1. She sunk off San Francisco. The Clemson class were modifications of the Wickes class. The last ship to be named USS Walker was
sold to the Italian Navy and decommissioned and broken up in 1977.
How did you come up with the Grik?
Generally, I explain that in my Author’s Notes, but specifically? Basically physiological and sociological extrapolation. As I say, they are based upon creatures that have come to be known inclusively as “raptors” and they have created a society based on their physiological background and imperatives, just as their physiology has reached a level of perfection as seen from within their society. Does that mean they ARE perfect? No. Might there even be other, similar creatures with an entirely different society? Absolutely. The Grik however, behave as they do (as you will slowly learn) because they must.
I’m 70, white and female with 2 loves in reading: sci fi and war. I just discovered and finished your Destroyermen series. FANTASTIC!! The most perfect blending of my 2 loves.
PLEASE MORE MORE MORE!!!
Why did you go with lemurs instead of tarsiers?
Because lemurs are the most awesome creatures on the face of this planet – in this alternate reality and Mr. Anderson’s!
All right. I see your point. However, the tarsier is indigenous to the Philippines, and with some disputed fossils, Indonesia.
Agreed, having a civilization of tarsiers would require less explanation. I think Mr. Anderson deliberately wanted to have a non-indigenous species to highlight the threat of the Grik, and so the Lemurian diaspora would explain the need for massive seagoing vessels. As tarsiers would not have had to transport their entire population on boats across the Indian Ocean, they’d probably have much smaller boats capable of only inter-island transport, and the storyline would be far different.
Blair and Leaping Lemur are both right. Tarsiers were a possibility, but Lemurs won out for a variety of reasons. First, I was lured by the giant Lemurs of antiquity. There is evidence they even existed in India and other places at one time, but the relative geographic isolation of Madagascar seemed important for their development. There WERE some nasty dinosaurs there, but the originally arboreal lemurs might have had a chance to outlast and out-evolve them. Clearly, by the time of their diaspora, they were accomplished tool users.
Second was the necessity of the storyline. Having determined the story must begin with the death of the remnants of the Asiatic Fleet, the Philippines was no longer a possible setting, nor was Indonesia–at first. Not until the Destroyermen made some friends, anyway. Also, the Lemurian diaspora provided yet another vehicle to establish how different “this” world is from the one the destroyermen left behind. I also wanted a distant, initially mysterious enemy. You learn more about the Grik as the story unfolds, and you’ll learn even more about them in Book #4. Some mysteries will remain. Like I have said, most of them don’t even know why they act the way they do–and it becomes increasingly apparent their behavior is primarily sociological.
Needless to say, like Leaping Lemur said, the story would have been fundamentally different with just a few little changes–just like the world we live in might have been fundamentally different.
I’ve seen some previews for a comedy movie called that. Isn’t it based on some ’70′s cartoon like Scooby Doo or something? My daughter used to watch that when she was a kid.
Somebody made a comment like that on Amazon, that it was like “land of the lost” and I just had to shake my head. I have no idea what they’re talking about. I never was much into cartoons. I always got a kick out of the old Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck stuff, but I was kind of stuck on “I Dream of Jeannie”(Barbara Eden is STILL a damn good looking gal)and “Gunsmoke” when I was a kid.
Taylor
Land of the Lost wasn’t a cartoon. It was a live action show that was on from 1974-1992. The plot’s similar. People displaced in time and trying to get home.
You have the Pakuni, (Lemurians), and the Sleestak, (Uul, or Grik). Even the way they got into it is similar. The Marshalls, (from the original series), rode in on an earthquake, and the Walker and its crew entered in a weird storm. Are you familiar with the 1980 science fiction movie The Final Countdown?
You say the plot is similar. Is there a lot of killin’?
I saw The Final Countdown, I’m sure. Kirk Douglas was in it, right? They went back in a modern carrier and prevented Pearl Harbor? I KNOW I saw it, but it must have been right when it came out. If it came out in ’80, that’s close to 30 years. I was a roofer then! About all I remember about 1980 was that it stayed 120 in the shade all summer and I was a roofer. I always swore I’d never do that again—but I built a guesthouse last summer and there I was on top of it, pounding nails. What the heck, at least I’ll always have a trade!
Taylor
Kirk Douglas and James Brolin were in it. It was about the USS Nimitz which went back to just before Pearl Harbor. They didn’t stop it though. The one thing
I can say about your series is that it’s The Final Countdown meets Land of the Lost. John Birmingham wrote the Axis of Time trilogy was similar to it. It was about a modern carrier battle group that changed history by destroying the Pacific Fleet on its way to Midway.
I have now lightly researched “Land of the Lost” and I have to say ANY comparison or suggestion of similarity is both slanderous and insulting. Probably both to me, and the writers of that show. Not …
I have now lightly researched “Land of the Lost” and I have to say ANY comparison or suggestion of similarity is both slanderous and insulting. Probably both to me, and the writers of that show. Nothing, despite the most tenuous, superficial, and utterly coincidental reflection of premise, could POSSIBLY be more different.
Anyone who really read my books wouldn’t even have to do so carefully to know that is the case.
As for “Axis of Time,” I have not read it. I’ve heard it’s great, and I fully intend to read it once my series runs its course, but I don’t go near ANYTHING I have been told might be similar right now.
Again, if my memory serves, the Final Countdown was about a modern SuperCarrier going back in time and either changing history–or trying not to. Which is it? I can’t remember.
Anyway, my stories are about this old, beat up WW1 relic going to another dimension, essentially, where it can’t affect history here at all. Hmm. Sounds identical, doesn’t it?
Taylor
Why didn’t you use fog?
Fog was inappropriate for several distinct reasons. First, it seemed lame. Second, the actual ships attempting to escape from the Japanese were historically attempting to lose them in rain squalls. As described in “Into the Storm,” USS POPE really did prolong the chase in such a way. Third, well, I have reasons that may ultimately creep into the storyline that required a violent, high energy phenomenon. The Destroyermen may never figure it out, but readers might.
I see. I read in an old booklet of my mother’s that when French pirates harassed
ships from the United States and other countries in 1802, they formed a convoy, and attempted to escape into a fog bank. It was also depicted in the
2003 movie Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World. The HMS
Surprise, commanded by Jack Aubrey, had to escape from a faster American-
built French ship called the Acheron, and the sailors took a boat and kedged
the Surprise, played by the reproduction of the HMS Rose, into a nearby fog bank. There was historical precedent for that. During the War of 1812, the USS
Constitution was kedged away from a British squadron led by HMS Guerriere.
A few weeks later, the Constitution and the Guerriere met for the second time
and the Constitution beat the Guerriere to splinters.
I’m not sure you do see. I am fully aware of all those incidents, historical and fictional, and many more similar ones. Fog has long been used to confound pursuit. The thing is, on March 1, 1942, there WERE squalls on the Java Sea. Exeter, Encounter and Pope WERE deliberately looking for them with the intention of using them for protection.
Blair, I don’t mean to be rude, but you ask a lot of basic questions that that would seem to be unnecissary to anyone who has read the books.
Taylor,I know. In war, ships have used squalls, and fog, to hide from their enemies. They’ve been using the weather to their advantage since the time of
Greece and Rome. Much the same way fighter planes use the clouds. The reason why I asked you about fog is because there’s a book by Bruce Gerron in
which he claims to have been flying through the Bermuda Triangle when he entered an electromagnetic fog bank and had a hard time finding his way out.
The name of the book is The Fog. That’s why I was wondering about the use of
fog. During the Battle of Thermopylae in 480 BC, the Persian fleet was scattered
by a massive storm. The Athenians had an easy time picking them off in the
naval battle that followed. Into the Storm was good. I haven’t read Crusade and Maelstrom yet. When are they coming out in paperback?
Taylor, did you ever consider Australopithecus?
I’m debating whether or not to use the Connecticut class pre-dreadnoughts in
the alternate history trilogy I’m writing because I have the South Dakota class of
1920 in it too. The South Dakota class of 1920, like the Nagato class, mounted
sixteen guns, compared to the Connecticuts’ mixed intermediate batteries. Any ideas?
Was Land of the Lost an influence?
I love thise series, but it would be interesting to get more info on the “squall” itself. 1) can the squall’s time and location be predicted, 2) does the squall always appear in the same location, If so, then as a Military person I would have ships/units positioned to intercept whatever comes through before another “faction” can get to them, 3) if a ship reenters the squall will they go back to their original timeline. Lastly, is the rate of time (1 day = 1 day or 1 day = 1 year, etc) the same for those in the “reality/alternate universe as those in 1942. An interesting thought is a grik ship passes through the squall into WWII Japanese-held East Indies.
Thanks Robert.
Interesting you mention that. There will be a few theories tossed out in “Distant Thunders.”
Just remember the time period and the constraints my characters face.
Arguably, Einstein’s most important theories were already “on the loose,” but they weren’t almost universally known and–at least partially accepted–like they are today.
Bradford might be a little “up” on him, and it made all the papers when the really smart dude moved to the US, so there might have been some name recognition. Some of the more recent Naval Academy grads might have even studied him a little. For anyone on the other earth to be a true student of his would be stretching things–a lot.
That said, from their unique perspective they might be able to come up with a few neat ideas of their own . . .
Don’t expect heated debate about sub-atomic particles however!
As for the one, or two way nature of the “Squall/Gate,” I think you’ll enjoy Bradford’s “stream of consciousness” ponderings on the subject.
Take care,
Taylor
I’m looking forward to the next book. I just don’t know when I’ll get around to reading it.
Would the South Dakota class of 1920 be a good choice? I’m rewriting my own
books because I just changed it from the Connecticut class to the South Dakota
class of 1920. It would have been the first American battleship class with 16″
guns.
The South Dakota class of 1920 was supposed to be the first class of battleships to have sixteen inch guns. Would this class be suitable for an alternate history series?
I’m writing a series about modern Marines. Marines from the Vietnam era who
are in the Central Highlands of South Vietnam, (the Republic of Vietnam), on 7
August 1967, that would be the 25th anniversary of the invasion of Guadalcanal
and the subsequent eponymous battle. I got the idea for it from a show on the
History Channel called Shoothout! The First Marine Division’s First Platoon is in
a fire fight with the NVA and Charlie, (the Vietvong), and then they see an arm
motioning for them to follow. When they do, they find themselves not in 1967,
in Vietnam, but on the same day in 1942, with all their modern weapons___in-
cluding their M16A1s, M60 machine guns, and Claymore antipersonnel mines.
Hmm, interesting premise. Don’t forget their different attitudes and worldviews. I’m not talking “platoon” here, but there were some generational differences.
Taylor
I think they would be fine, but you still have to create a world that needs them and didn’t discard them. No treaty because—–???
A. WW1 lasted longer? Why?
B. Bolshevik Rev. spread to other countries and became a bigger threat?
C. Japanese succeeded in gaining control of Trans-Siberian Railroad (how?)and became more aggressively imperialistic earlier (why?)
D. Maybe US got in a cold war with Britain and France over the use of American troops at Murmansk/Archangel. Might create some really strange power-blocs there. Just a few suggestions.
Anyway, like I said before, you would need a good compelling geopolitical reason for the ships to exist.
Taylor
I’m going with the lack of treaties. The Washington Naval Treaty and the London Naval Treaty were instrumental only delaying, not stopping, World War
II. However, a cold war between the U.S., Britain, and France, could be another
possibility. So could Japan gaining control of the Trans-Siberian Railroad. How
about this for another possibility? The Whites manage to overthrow the Bolshiviks, and restore the Romanovs to throne, killing Lenin, Stalin, Trotsky,
and the Red Army, in the process?
The platoon in question is the 1st Platoon. I thought the concept was unique.
When the 1st Platoon finds itself on Guadalcanal, the point man speculates that
they must have come through a wormhole. They also have to lie to their World
War II counterparts and call their M16s “Stoner Submachine Guns,”
Interesting–but even more complex. A cold war with Britain and France over THEIR use of American troops in their unsuccessful attempts against the Bolsheviks in the north, while open American aid–ostensibly to rescue the Czechs–is the only thing that stopped the Japanese from taking over the railroad. The Americans weren’t supposed to take sides in the revolution, but the Whites were much more successful there. Makes you wonder whose side the Russians would wind up on . . .
Good point. In John Birmingham’s Axis of Time trilogy, they ended up on the side of the Germans. As for weapons, we sent the Russians a few modified Winchester M1895 rifles. The Winchester M1895 was NEVER adopted by the
Russians because of its delicate lever-action. The Russians adopted the Mosin-
Nagant instead and used it until the adoption of the AK-47.
Because Germany wanted to invade the United States, also, because Germany
wanted the Philippines. I read an article in the magazine MILITARY HISTORY about a German historian’s discovery of Kaiser Wilhelm II’s Winter Plans, these
were drawn up an aide to the Imperial German Military Attache`. The United
States, between 1887 and 1918, was militarily weak. We still had wooden ships.
The Navy didn’t become a steel navy until the 1890s when the Maine class pre-
dreadnoughts were built. Commodore Dewey had to send a ship to Hong Kong
in order to tell Washington that we’d taken the Philippines. The Indiana class
was also from this era. The armored cruiser USS Rochester, formerly USS New
York, was part of the Asiatic Fleet, and she was hurriedly sunk. Germany had
wanted an overseas empire since before Kaiser Wilhelm came to the German throne. When Kaiser Wilhelm II ascended to the German throne, he commissioned the Winter Plans. If the Imperial German Navy had wanted to invade, there was nothing the United States Army could do but stand by and
watch as German troops landed between Cape Cod and New York City.
German invasion plans, according to the book TARGET AMERICA: HITLER’S PLAN TO ATTACK THE UNITED STATES, were ongoing until 1945.
As for the Bolshevik Revolution expanding to the other countries, that nearly
happened. According to the book TACTICAL GENIUS IN BATTLE, Josef Pilsudski, a Polish general, and the first president modern Poland, defeated the Red Army in the Battle of Warsaw in 1920. The Soviet Union ALMOST
succeeded. I also see no reason for the Japanese NOT to seize the Trans-Siberian Railroad because it had already seized Port Arthur, Manchuria, now the Chinese city of Liaotung. If they had, then they probably would have manufactured a pretext for war with the Soviet Union the same way they’d
manufactured the Mukden Incident in 1931.
In my rewritten first book, I’ve made the South Dakota class of 1920 more
modern as per the 1940s. I’ve given all six ships radar. That way they can detect the Japanese planes farther out than they could with lookouts with binoculars. I’ve also turned the Connecticut class pre-dreadnoughts into museum ships.
The North Carolina class was just two battleships. North Carolina and Washington. If the Washington Naval Treaty had failed, then the second USS
Washington would have been completed. The first USS North Carolina was a
South Dakota class battleship.
How about a cold war between the United States, Britain, France, and Germany?
Without the Treaty of Versailles, and the Allies’ imposition of democracy on Germany, maybe the Kaiser would have ended up like King Victor Emanuel II,
of Italy, and Hirohito of Japan. Benito Mussolini supposedly led the Fascists in
the March on Rome. Hitler’s 1923 Beerhall Putsch was almost successful.
Could you imagine what would have happened had the Kaiser, if he was still on
the German throne, been forced to make Hitler the German Chancellor?
Also, could you imagine what would have happened had the Allies been able
to back Austria, Poland, and Czechoslovakia?
Would a cold war between the United States, Britain, France, and Germany, have
been enough to compel the United States to keep the South Dakota class of 1920? Also, what if the United States had never purchased Alaska? Would a Soviet presence in North America also scare the United States Senate into rejecting the Washington Naval Treaty?
Did you ever consider setting your Destroyermen series in the during the time of the Permian-Triassic Extinction Event instead of the time before the K-T Extinction Event?
Yeah I did,and it would actually have allowed for even stranger creatures and environments. I made my decision based on a couple of things. First, not that many people are nearly as familiar with that event, and it would have been far more difficult for readers to “catch” or “identify” with. It would have been impossible for the destroyermen, in context, to figure out roughly when the change occurred. Generally, they understand that whatever “killed off” the dinosaurs never happened, but remember, in the ’40′s, nobody really had any idea what that mechanism had been. It could have been anthrax for all they knew. Even today, much of what we understand about it is based on speculation. The comet/asteroid strike is generally accepted as the catalyst, but there is still a lot of debate regarding what happened next.
Also, the Permian-Triassic extinction was a formative, internal thing (probably). I suppose it is possible that it too was caused by a massive strike, but I subscribe more to the theory that it had more to do with the internal dynamics of the planet sorting itself out. A lot more difficult to explain that away than by just dodging a bullet–and maybe we didn’t dodge it??? Maybe it just hit somewhere else, like land??? Some models show the long term effects of that would have been less severe . . .
Taylor
Yes, it was. However, it was on Animal Planet’s Animal Armageddon last night
and the scientists said that it’s not as well-known as the K-T period. The animals during the Permian-Triassic were all mammal like reptiles like lystrosaurus and Gorgonopsia. It was during that time that the Siberian Traps
erupted killing nearly all life on Earth.
Yeah, I saw that show. Not bad. Their scenario had earth basically turning into Mars without the wind or cold. Crummy vacation spot. Like I said, I could have made up all sorts of cool critters, but without more shows like that, who’s ever heard of Gorgonopsia? Besides, I think I was motivated also by a desire to introduce (somewhere down the line) some form of Pleistecine-like dinosaur cross!
There needs to have been a cross between a Triceratops, a feral hog and a Glyptodon! I’ve already hinted at that with my “Rhino-pigs.”
Would a cold war between the United States, Britain, France, and Germany,
be acceptable? Also, what if the United States never bought Alaska from Russia?
Would a Soviet presence in North America, be enough to convince the United
States Senate NOT to ratify the Washington Naval Treaty?
That’s a possibility. Still, Russia could provide a manufactured threat.
Allow me to elaborate. The Washington Naval Treaty, and the London Naval Treaty, First, or Second, isn’t important right now. Let’s say that the Treaty of
Versailles ISN’T negotiated and put into effect. The United States is upset with
Britain and France for using ITS troops to relieve the Czechs, and most possibly, the Whites, in the north, at the expense of the Trans-Siberian Railroad. Japan takes it and uses it to send their troops west to Moscow.
The Soviet Union, seeing the threat to the Rodina, with the South Dakota,
and Florida classes, decides to build a new class of battleships to counter the
American battleships. The British build their N3, or Nelson class, battleships.
The French, develop a new class of battleships as well. And the Germans, seeing these developments, decide to build a new class of battleships.
How about this scenario: World War I ends just in a cease-fire, like Korea did.
There were American battleships that fought with the Royal Navy’s Battleship
Division 9 during World War I. The cease-fire freezes everything in place.
The Americans, still upset over Britain and France using THEIR troops in the
Bolshevik Revolution to relieve the Czechs, are confined to their ships by the
British. The American battleships are interned in Scappa Flow along with the German High Seas Fleet. By 1919, the Americans hear rumors that the British
and French, to make up for their losses in the war, are planning on condemning
the American battleships as war prizes, and redistributing them to both the Royal Navy and the French Navy, and to a lesser extent, other Allied navies.
The American crews see their German counterparts in the ships of the HIgh Seas Fleet. The Americans, not wanting to lose their ships to Britain and France, have three choices: One, allow the British and French to condemn their ships as war prizes, two, scuttle their ships, which would be equally,
if not more distasteful, and a waste of money, or three, a breakout, which
the Americans conclude, will be the lesser of three evils. The Americans lead a breakout past the ships of the Royal Navy and the French Navy. The Americans are under orders not to fire unless fired upon. Among the ships in the American-led breakout, are those of the German High Seas Fleet. Could this scenario, provided that the Treaty of Versailles isn’t ratified, could happen?
The American battleships that were attached to the Grand Fleet’s Battleship
Division 9 were part of the United States Navy’s Battleship Division 2. That included USS NEW YORK and USS ARKANSAS. As BatDiv 2 is preparing to leave
Scapa Flow after the internment of the High Seas Fleet, Admiral Sir John Jellicoe,
the commander of the Grand Fleet, orders Battleship Division 2 interned. William Jennings Bryan, Woodrow Wilson’s Secretary of State, likens the seizure
of Battleship Division 2 to the impressment of American sailors during the
War of 1812.
This one is pretty cool. The USS Texas was there too! One thing: The US went voluntarily to the aid of the Czechs. That was part of the excuse for putting troops into Vladivostok and, by the way, keeping the Japanese from taking over the Trans Siberian railroad. Even though their actions there often benefitted the Whites, they were officially neutral.
The British took US troops and used them in direct combat against the Bolsheviks at Murmansk/Archangel. This was done without permission. The original reason for this intervention was to preserve war material that had been stockpiled there for the Imperial Russian army to use against the Germans. After the separate peace of Brest/Litovsk, the Allies were keen to keep this material–which the Bolsheviks said they wouldn’t pay for–out of German OR Bolshevik hands. After the Armistice, the effort became one exclusively to prevent the Bolsheviks from using it, and ultimately became an aborted effort to subdue the Bolsheviks.
Taylor, in what I’m writing, I have Battleship Division 2, with the American pre-
dreadnoughts, because in World War I, dreadnoughts and pre-dreadnoughts served together, interned at Scapa Flow with the German High Seas Fleet, and the commander of BatDiv 2, an American admiral named Albert Decker, conspires with the commander of the High Seas Fleet, Admiral Von Reuter,
to escape and slip out past the British guard ships which include the British battleship HMS Queen Elizabeth, and the four Abercrombie class monitors.
Could there be ANY WAY, in this alternate version of the Bolshevik Revolution,
that the United States’ troops are reluctant to relieve the Czechs, and that the
British and French could ORDER them to do it at Murmansk/Archangel? The
Czechs, if you remember, were able to bribe the Bolsheviks, in order to get
home.
I don’t know. I don’t really see how or why. The official US presence was at Vladivostok and it would be hard to find anyplace on any continent farther from Murmansk–and still be in the same country. Lots of potential for escalated bad feelings with the Japanese too. The Japanese were an “Ally” in WWI, but the Navy was pro Brit while the Army was kind of pro German. The Americans at Murmansk/Archangel were not supposed to be used in combat and were even equipped with Brit uniforms and stuff. Evidently, whenever Wilson asked Lloyd George what he was doing with them, the Brit PM put him off. Wilson was too concerned with being the “Great Man” and getting his “League of Nations” at the time to worry about much else. The Canadians weren’t happy about their role either.
One odd little bit of trivia though–the first US forces ever to engage in combat with Bolsheviks were Naval personnel from the old cruiser Olympia–of Manila Bay fame….
I did a paper on this whole mess in college and I’d post it if I could. I have always been drawn to little-known historical events. The paper was “US intervention in the Bolshevik Revolution” and boiled down the whole “wild goat swarm” (You’d just have to see a swarm of wild goats to appreciate the analogy) that was the situation at the time quite nicely, if I do say so myself. The problem is, I was using an old Panasonic 1500 Word Processer and it is incompatible with anything under heaven, so even if I still had the discs–which I doubt–I can’t read them with anything I know of. Anyway, I don’t see how you could get the Brits and French to get in trouble for ordering US troops to save the Czechs from Murmansk when, even though saving the Trans-Siberian Railroad from the Japanese was kind of the main point at Vladivostok, the stated reason for US deployment there was to work their way east–which they were doing–to “save” the Czechs.
Doing what they did, ordering US troops into direct combat with the Bolsheviks, still seems the best way to engender Brit/French-US animosity. Not that it ever did the US any good with the Bolsheviks. The White Russians might have appreciated what the US was doing, but they didn’t win. All the Bolsheviks ever remembered was that we had “invaded them” and the US and Canadian troops in particular (The Canadians were using some French 75′s to great effect) killed an awful lot of them. As a type of “progressive,” Wilson was probably even a little sympathetic toward the Bolsheviks.
I’m not a Wilson fan. The US and Russia had a long tradition of friendship, despite the different governmental systems. A more engaged and decisive US president might have salvaged the “Russian Situation” with more overt support from Vladivostok. Even if the Bolsheviks had won elsewhere, the “White Russians” might have held on and ultimately turned the tide. With US support and example, Russia might have become a much different country. Lots of “What ifs” there. Just as we can look to the treaty of Versailles as the seed that Hitler grew from, we can view the stirrings of the Cold War in 1919.
I see. Here’s another little known bit of trivia. The first naval combat between the United States and Japan was a little-known, if forgotten, battle between the
U.S. Navy and the Tokugawa Shogunate in 1863. The Navy won. It was this battle that convinced the Japanese that they had to modernize and probably led
to the Meiji Restoration. If you remember the Tom Cruise movie THE LAST SAMURAI, Tom Cruise’s character sides with the titular last samurai and fought
with them against the Imperial Japanese Army. I have ten issues of a magazine
called WAR MONTHLY. The last article in the 10th issue is about the Battle of
the Yalu. The Imperial Chinese Navy went up against the Imperial Japanese Navy
and lost. The commander of the Imperial Chinese Navy’s flagship, the battleship Chen Yuen, had been a cavalry general and tried the cavalry maneuver known as the flying wedge. It didn’t work.
The South Dakota class of 1920 was to be accompanied by the Lexington class
battlecruisers. Of which only two, LEXINGTON and SARATOGA, were converted into aircraft carriers under the Washington Naval Treaty. However, since the Washington Naval Treaty, officially, The Washington Treaty On The Limitation of
Naval Arms, is non-existent in this world, and the Japanese battlecruiser AMAGI
wasn’t destroyed in 1923, while being converted into an aircraft carrier, it can
be safe to assume that both the South Dakota class of 1920, the Lexington
class battlecruisers, and the third, or fourth, USS Washington, a Colorado class,
or Maryland class battleship, according to the European classification at the time, would have been completed.
Good point. It also brings up another:
If not for the treaty limitations, how far back would it have set the creation of a competent and effective Naval air arm–for anybody? There was a lot of experimentation going on at the time, but most everybody were still “big gun guys.” The battlecruisers under construction probably would have been completed as battlecruisers before the first carriers were laid down. It would have happened, but we might have jumped from the Langley to the Ranger or something, and you might have seen F3F’s in combat!
That’s right and the South Dakota class of 1920 probably would have been completed as well. The Connecticut class pre-dreadnoughts probably would have been kept as well. The first dreadnoughts, the South Carolina class, was
just fast enough to keep up with the pre-dreadnoughts. Our first aircraft carrier, USS LANGLEY, was originally a collie named USS JUPITER. Langley had
been converted to a seaplane tender and sent to the Asiatic Fleet, which was
part of the 16th Naval District. All the navies of the world back in the Inter-War
Period, had leaders and commanders were members of the “Gun Club.”
It was the “Gun Club” that was responsible for the court-martial of Billy Mitchell. Ironically, what brought an end to the battleship era, was the airplane.
Back in 1921, a squadron of Martin MB-2 biplane bombers sank the German battleship OSTFRIESLAND. Prior to 1941, the Pacific Fleet was based at San Diego, California. It had been moved to Pearl Harbor in 1940.
The captain of the South Dakota, when told by his radar operator, that the Japanese are going to sink PRINCE OF WALES and REPULSE, is cold. He says that
he hopes the Japanese sink them. He’s not diverting to Singapore to help them
out. He’s determined to head to the Malay Barrier, which included both Malaya
and the Dutch East Indies, currently Indonesia.
Are there any sea monsters like mososaur, pleiosaur, and pleiosaur in this world that the crew of the USS WALKER has entered?
If you remember, the destroyers were, until the 1960s, armed with guns. The
guns in question until then, were 5″ guns, which were used quite effectively by
the destroyers and destroyer escorts of Taffy-3, which was badly mauled by
the IJN’s Center Force, at the Battle of Surigao Strait. That happened when Admiral Halsey’s Third Fleet left Taffy-3 to its own devices, when it was left
behind so Halsey could chase the Northern Force, which was just bait. That prompted the famous message: “Where is the Third Fleet? The world wants to know.”
World War I ends in an armistice like Korea did. Therefore, no Treaty of Versailles, no Washington Naval Treaty, no London Naval Treaty, and no Kellogg-Briand Pact. Since World War I just ended in an armistice, the United
States, to keep up with Britain and France, and also to spite them, build the South Dakota class of 1920. The United States is mad because Britain and France
used their troops, without their permission, to relieve the Czechs at Archangel/
Murmansk. While in Britain, the United States battleships, including the Connecticut class pre-dreadnoughts, are forced into Scapa Flow. The American
battleships, including the American dreadnoughts, are about to be redistributed
to the Royal Navy, French Navy, and to a lesser extent, the Italian Regia Marina. The American crews conspire with the German High Seas Fleet, to escape.
I’m moving the first USS South Dakota to the Asiatic Fleet. She’ll be in The
Philippines when World War II begins. She’ll be sent there with the Colorado,
Delaware, South Carolina, and Florida class battleships., in 1937, just after the
sinking of the USS Panay, and the declaration of war by the United States against
the Empire of Japan. What do you think?
Do you intend to have submarines like the USS Pike, in future books? Did any
American submarines follow Walker, Mahan, and Amagi, through the Squall, to
end up on the alternate Earth where the Lemurians, and Grik, are doing battle?
The six Lexington class battlecruisers, two of which, Lexington, and Saratoga,
were converted to aircraft carriers, under the Washington Naval Treaty, were to
be the United States Navy’s first battlecruisers. They were going to be armed with the same 16″ guns as the South Dakota class of 1920. If there had been
an arms race between the United States, Britain, and France, then with no Washington Naval Treaty, and no London Naval Treaty, the sky would have been
the limit. Without both treaties, which at best, delayed World War II, and at worst, didn’t stop it____the Japanese battlecruiser Amagi, probably would have
faced either Lexington, or Saratoga.
Hey Blair. It all sounds fine to me. Write it. As for the sub question, you need to read “Maelstrom.”
Take care.
Taylor
That’s a tough question. Possibly. Russia was not much of a naval power however, and the US had TRIED to remain “neutral” regarding it’s internal mess. Additionally, the cold war between US and Britain and France would likely resulted in their use of American troops at Murmansk/Archangel without permission, so even though US sympathies were with the Whites, the Reds might have seen this as a bone being tossed to them. A lot would have depended on the political situation. The depression might not have hit, for example, without the punitive measures of the treaty of Versailles. Lots of possibilities.
The Japanese battleships Nagato and Mutsu, were the Nagato class. Of the two battleships, Mutsu blew up in a boiler explosion, and Nagato was one of the battleships used in the
1946 nuclear tests code-named Operation Crossroads at Bikini
Atoll. What would have happened had Japan kept up its momentum
that it had during the the run up to Pearl Harbor and Midway?
Had the Japanese won at Midway, and then Guadalcanal, and cut
the supply lines to Australia, how would the United States have recovered?
The armored cruiser USS New York, renamed USS Rochester, so the Navy could use the name for the battleship, USS New York, was scuttled when the Asiatic Fleet left the Philippines. With
the aircraft carrier probably delayed until 1945, the era of
the battleship still exists. So it would probably mean that
we’d still see the linear fights between battleships like Jutland and the Battle off Samar. Maybe even Coral Sea, Midway, and the Battle of the Philippine Sea, would have involved battleships.
Here’s what I was thinking—-all of the above. World War I lasts longer because the Germans decide to launch one more attack on the Allies at the eleventh hour, of the eleventh day, of the eleventh month. The United States gets upset with
Britain and France, over the use of their troops to relieve the Czechoslovakian Legion, at Archangel, and gets into a cold
war with Britain and France. Britain decides to build the G3 class battlecruisers and N3 class battleships. The United States, decides to build the South Dakota class of 1920 and the Lexington class battlecruisers. Since there are no treaties, especially the Washington and London Naval Treaties, these classes, along with the French Dunkirk class
and British King George V class, are also being built under
no restrictions. It also means that Florida, and Wyoming,
one of which was scrapped, (Florida under the London Naval
Treaty), was scrapped, and the other, (Wyoming), was converted into a gun training ship. This will also have all
six Connecticut class pre-dreadnoughts, which won’t be scrapped—–but updated. They’ll get 14″ guns, oil-fired boilers, and possibly, radar. On our timeline, the Connecticut class and South Dakota class of 1920, were scrapped. The South Dakota class of 1920, will also get up-
dated. New boilers, which will make it go faster, and radar.
The Asiatic Fleet isn’t the only thing that would be great for
alternate history. Just think, for example, of the greatest sea chase since the Kearsage and the Alabama, during the Civil
War. If the aircraft carrier had been delayed by a year, then
the only ships available would have been battleships and battlecruisers. I’m referring to the pursuit, and ultimate
sinking, of the Bismarck, by the Royal Navy. If the aircraft
carrier’s development had been delayed by one year because of
a last-minute German counterattack at the eleventh hour, on the eleventh day, of the eleventh month, (November 11, 1918),
then the earliest the aircraft carrier could have plausibly
entered service in all the world’s navies, (except for Germany and Italy), would have been 1945—-too late to
participate in World War II—-except in a token role—-but
just in time for Korea, and later, Vietnam. Could you imagine what would have happened had Taranto, the Bismarck, Pearl Harbor, and the Tirpitz, been sunk solely by battleships?
In future books, will you introduce other ships, like for example, SMS Emden, HMS Yarmouth,HMAS Sydney, and the Japanese
cruiser Chikuma, (1911)?
In 1978, Walter Alvarez, and his son, discovered iridium deposits in the K/T boundary. Iridium is a rare mineral here on Earth, so it would only be found in trace amounts. They discovered that it went all the way around the planet and that
it was something from the sky. The most likely, (or unlikely,
depending on your POV, was an asteroid. Critics of the asteroid theory, like Robert Bakker, say that if it was an
asteroid, then ALL life would have been extinguished, and that
no dinosaurs died. Dr. Bakker claims that it was volcanic eruptions). However, recently scientists have rejected the volcanic eruption theory as proposed by Dr. Bakker, and reaffirmed the asteroid theory, that had been accepted by the scientific community thirty years ago.